What the heck is "Eist"?

Exist ...

(May 27, 2016 at 8:57 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: It's a metaphor!

Yes it is. Here is what Aquinas says in the Summa:

"Holy Writ puts before us spiritual and divine things under the likeness of corporeal things."

and earlier...

"It is befitting Holy Writ to put forward divine and spiritual truths under the likeness of material things. For God provides for everything according to the capacity of its nature. Now it is natural to man to attain to intellectual truths through sensible things because all our knowledge originates from sense. Hence in Holy Writ spiritual truths are fittingly taught under the metaphors of material things."

No problem.

(May 27, 2016 at 3:46 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(May 27, 2016 at 1:00 pm)Drich Wrote: Actually... The bible says God is Omni Present as it pertains to creation. The bible clearly states that Hell is separation from the presence of God. That Hell is outside of creation and God does not reside there.

Ummm....I'm not so sure. In (2 Thes 1:7-9.) Paul seems to be saying just that. But what about Revelation 14:10? I think this is a case were all the relevant verses must be interpreted by the whole counsel of the Word. It would be very odd indeed if He didn't know the goings-on in Hell. What is clear is that people in Hell reject God's sovereignty and/or worship the Antichrist. God can still be present and eternally reaching out to people who are willfully blind to His presence and hardened themselves a to not receive His blessings.

Unless the angels Share Omni presence with God then, What is described in verse 10 is a punishment being measured out and witnessed for a time. Because it states that Jesus and the Holy Angels will witness this torture before them. Meaning as it is happening.

10 They will drink the wine of God’s anger. This wine is prepared with all its strength in the cup of God’s anger. They will be tortured with burning sulfur before the holy angels and the Lamb.  11 And the smoke from their burning pain will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest, day or night, for those who worship the beast and its idol or who wear the mark of its name.”


You also have to remember 2Thess 1: 7-9 is not a stand alone concept. All of the parables Jesus Himself taught concerning a separation from the saved to the unsaved (Wheat/Weeds, wheat/Chaff, Sheep/Goats etc..) All end with the saved being invited into where God is, and the rest cast out or separated from God. Not to meantion his direct teachings on the matter Mat 25:34-41, Luke 16:22-26 In both instances Christ describes a divide between God in Heaven and the tortured in Hell.

So in order to reconcile revelation passage with what Jesus taught I Imagine Jesus and the holy Angels are there to witness the great hord of unsaved being cast into hell and witness them being consumed by this molten sulfur. then they leave, because the only other option is Jesus and the holy angels standing watch for eternity, because the angels have never been scripturaly attributed with omni presences. There are simply where they are at the time they are there. Which means is they are to have an eternal presence in Hell they themselves would have to be in Hell.

Now that said, God being omnipotent I believe that He does indeed know what is going on in Hell, even if His presences is not there.

Good thought, at least one person is reading what i write.

(May 28, 2016 at 1:46 am)Maelstrom Wrote: Take a look at any culture's superstitious beliefs, whether rooted in religion or mythology, and one will find that the primary reason for having the belief in effect is to scare children into behaving.  Growing up with the belief, the child becomes an adult and passes on the belief to his children.

Hell was created merely as a means to scare people into behaving.

I personally find that teaching children about jail and prison works perfectly fine, but what do I know.  I'm just a heathen.

Atheist myth #2 Hell is not about behavior modification. It's about the destruction and imprisonment of those who will not accept atonement.

(May 28, 2016 at 10:42 am)ChadWooters Wrote:

(May 27, 2016 at 8:57 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: It's a metaphor!

Yes it is. Here is what Aquinas says in the Summa:

"Holy Writ puts before us spiritual and divine things under the likeness of corporeal things."

and earlier...

"It is befitting Holy Writ to put forward divine and spiritual truths under the likeness of material things. For God provides for everything according to the capacity of its nature. Now it is natural to man to attain to intellectual truths through sensible things because all our knowledge originates from sense. Hence in Holy Writ spiritual truths are fittingly taught under the metaphors of material things."

No problem.

And earlier theologians taught otherwise. You get no points for cherry picking your thinkers.

edit
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(May 28, 2016 at 8:29 am)ignoramus Wrote: Exist ...

It could have been "East".

(May 28, 2016 at 11:20 am)Drich Wrote:

(May 27, 2016 at 3:46 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: Ummm....I'm not so sure. In (2 Thes 1:7-9.) Paul seems to be saying just that. But what about Revelation 14:10? I think this is a case were all the relevant verses must be interpreted by the whole counsel of the Word. It would be very odd indeed if He didn't know the goings-on in Hell. What is clear is that people in Hell reject God's sovereignty and/or worship the Antichrist. God can still be present and eternally reaching out to people who are willfully blind to His presence and hardened themselves a to not receive His blessings.

Unless the angels Share Omni presence with God then, What is described in verse 10 is a punishment being measured out and witnessed for a time. Because it states that Jesus and the Holy Angels will witness this torture before them. Meaning as it is happening.

10 They will drink the wine of God’s anger. This wine is prepared with all its strength in the cup of God’s anger. They will be tortured with burning sulfur before the holy angels and the Lamb.  11 And the smoke from their burning pain will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest, day or night, for those who worship the beast and its idol or who wear the mark of its name.”


You also have to remember 2Thess 1: 7-9 is not a stand alone concept. All of the parables Jesus Himself taught concerning a separation from the saved to the unsaved (Wheat/Weeds, wheat/Chaff, Sheep/Goats etc..) All end with the saved being invited into where God is, and the rest cast out or separated from God. Not to meantion his direct teachings on the matter Mat 25:34-41, Luke 16:22-26 In both instances Christ describes a divide between God in Heaven and the tortured in Hell.

So in order to reconcile revelation passage with what Jesus taught I Imagine Jesus and the holy Angels are there to witness the great hord of unsaved being cast into hell and witness them being consumed by this molten sulfur. then they leave, because the only other option is Jesus and the holy angels standing watch for eternity, because the angels have never been scripturaly attributed with omni presences. There are simply where they are at the time they are there. Which means is they are to have an eternal presence in Hell they themselves would have to be in Hell.

Now that said, God being omnipotent I believe that He does indeed know what is going on in Hell, even if His presences is not there.

Good thought, at least one person is reading what i write.

Nice exegesis. Good to know at least one other person reads the bible and takes it seriously. I'll give it some thought.

(May 28, 2016 at 11:25 am)Drich Wrote: Atheist myth #2 Hell is not about behavior modification. It's about the destruction and imprisonment of those who will not accept atonement.

The irony is that if you had any understanding of atheism, you would no longer be a theist.