(June 13, 2016 at 6:06 am)Aractus Wrote:

(June 13, 2016 at 3:32 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Please link to  a few examples of this rhetoric you seem to be coming across.

Here's one example:

That doesn't promise more deaths at the prospect of a gun ban. Matter of fact, it doesn't mention gun bans at all.

How many of those t-shirts do you see in your neighborhood, that that rhetoric is "coming out of America"? I live in rural Texas, in the heart of gun country, and I've never seen that t-shirt, nor any like it.

Why don't you try again, and this time put some effort into it? Laziness really bugs me, and this is simple laziness on your part.

Give me a few examples of this rhetoric coming out of America.

(June 13, 2016 at 4:38 am)Aoi Magi Wrote: I don't really understand this fear of a "police state". We live in a civilized world and not in a jungle where everyone has to save their own skin. The cops, and legal institutions are there to protect the citizens. What's the point of having such institutions if one has to take the law in their own hands? And what is even the point of having laws if everyone has to enforce their own laws? cops, our government, leaders, these are not some aliens dropping from the sky, they are coming from among us, they are the same as us, and we have the power to choose who gets the power, so why do you think anyone and everyone with power is out to get you? They are not a hive mind damnit!

So you have your guns, now say you don't like your president, what's your solution? shoot him? Or raise your voice and get him to step down? If your voice is already a strong enough weapon, why do you need guns?

And again, as a self defence weapon that kills, how many deaths do you expect to prevent with it? Why can't non-lethal solutions be a better option?

I understand the fear of a police state in America in the wake of the whole black lives matter movement, and how they literally do gun down black kids over petty shit like shoplifting or drugs. So in that context, I understand why a lot of especially black and minority Americans might be more reluctant to give their guns up.

The thing is, in a gun-less state even the police don't need guns. Here in The UK most patrol cops do not carry guns, they have tear gas and batons, and maybe tazers. Only very specially trained and senior cops in The UK use guns. That's how we've generally avoided the situation that's happening in The USA, where the police think they're in the Wild West and shoot anything that moves.

I don't think "police brutality" is a good enough reason for people to defend keeping guns. The police need to lose their guns too, apart from the very specially trained ones.

I skimmed the first two pages and the last two because I'm not reading 25 pages of people arguing if I'm not along for the ride already. With that said I'm very surprised by how the convo has gone. It seems to be mostly on guns (from what I saw but maybe in those pages that I skipped there was more) I thought due to the fact that we are mostly atheists I thought this would be about gays and bashing on religions not guns. Anyone wanna give me a summary of the past 25 pages if I missed anything important? lol

(June 13, 2016 at 7:14 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(June 13, 2016 at 3:52 am)Huggy74 Wrote: [...]Guns aren't a determining factor in whether or not someone commits suicide.[...]

Of course they are. Are you even serious? It's a quick solution immediately available, when a mentally distraught person feels momentarily suicidal. There's not much time between pulling the trigger and the brain splattering, so not much chance for changing one's mind, or getting help - as there is with suicide methods, like cutting wrists, swallowing poison, or overdosing on drugs.

Sure - banning guns wouldn't end suicide - but it would most likely significantly lower the number of successful ones. US per capita suicide rate is twice that of UK (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co...icide_rate). Why is that? We must be doing something right. Maybe it's the free health-care (but then there are countries with free health-care, that have suicide rates way higher), maybe it's economical stability (but that's not really different in US), maybe it's the sunny weather, glorious food and naturally happy people, Britain is known for...
But maybe it's just that we don't have tools for killing on our persons at all times...

Can you explain why America is at #50 for suicide, then, behind countries which have drastically restricted (to the point of outlawing) the private ownership of guns, such as Japan or South Korea? By your logic, we ought to be topping that list.

As much as it pains me to do so, I have to agree with Huggy on this one. Guns may make suicides easier, but when a person wants to off himself, it will happen.

(June 13, 2016 at 10:02 am)Huggy74 Wrote:

(June 13, 2016 at 5:15 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Then perhaps you should parse out intentional killings using autos and compare those to intentional killings using guns?

Just a thought.

The FBI report I linked uses the term "homicide", which simply means one person causing the death of another and makes no distinction of intent, so comparing homicide with homicide is an apt comparison.

Your explanation is nonsense. Here is a screenshot of that linked page. I added the yellow arrow and the red box to draw your attention to the word "murder", which has a specific meaning when used by the FBI:

(June 13, 2016 at 10:02 am)Huggy74 Wrote: Furthermore if a person intends to kill someone, what is a gun ban going to do?

I never have advocated for a gun ban, Sparky.

You clearly need more practice with this reading stuff.

(June 13, 2016 at 12:19 pm)mlmooney89 Wrote: I skimmed the first two pages and the last two because I'm not reading 25 pages of people arguing if I'm not along for the ride already. With that said I'm very surprised by how the convo has gone. It seems to be mostly on guns (from what I saw but maybe in those pages that I skipped there was more) I thought due to the fact that we are mostly atheists I thought this would be about gays and bashing on religions not guns. Anyone wanna give me a summary of the past 25 pages if I missed anything important? lol

In a .gif:



We talk about everything here.

(June 13, 2016 at 12:30 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Can you explain why America is at #50 for suicide, then, behind countries which have drastically restricted (to the point of outlawing) the private ownership of guns, such as Japan or South Korea? By your logic, we ought to be topping that list.

Not really. I never said that it was a simple correlation. Suicide rates are influenced by all sorts of factors - social, economic, cultural - which does not mean, that ready availability of easy to use killing tools has no part.  How large a part - that's debatable, sure, but some might argue, that whatever the potential decrease in suicides may be - it's at least worth considering.

I used the statistic, because UK and US are not dissimilar in culture, standard of living economy and mental health care - at least when compared with - say - Japan, where suicide ideation is imprinted in history, or other places where main religion does not openly condemn suicide. Or poor/developing countries, like eastern Europe, where pressure of young capitalism and lack of economic options can explain, at least partly, higher suicide rates.

(June 13, 2016 at 12:30 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: As much as it pains me to do so, I have to agree with Huggy on this one. Guns may make suicides easier, but when a person wants to off himself, it will happen.

I think you're underestimating the power of impulse. Many people, who survived a suicide attempt never tried it again. And considering that guns are the most reliable suicide method (along cyanide, but who keeps cyanide around the house?) - having them as an option certainly influences the number of survivors.

I'd recommend http://lostallhope.com/ - lots of interesting statistics as well as links to studies. Here's one:

Quote:In a study done in Oxford UK7, 864 people that attempted suicide (and survived) were asked to rate, on a scale of 1 to 30, how intent they were on killing themselves (where 30 was totally intent, and 1 was hardly at all). The results are below:
Rating of suicidal intent
% of respondents
Low (0-6)
36.9%
Moderate (7-12)
33.9%
High (13-20
25.0%
Very High (21+)
4.2%
The message here is that two thirds of people that try to kill themselves are not that intent on succeeding. 

I'm ignoring the gun debate because I don't see that as worthy of being argued right now. I am seriously sitting at work crying because of this article.

http://www.kcentv.com/story/32208200/son...-gonna-die

I... I can't even imagine the pain that mother went through and is now going through.

As a person who has suffered chronic depression her entire life, I have to say that if there had been a gun in my house, I'd be gone already... or at least severely injured. Just a personal anecdote, but there it is.

(June 13, 2016 at 9:13 am)Brian37 Wrote: "all citizens can have a gun", does not entitle you to one.

Agreed.

Quote:Just like you have the right to buy a car,

You have the right to buy a car but not to drive it. At least on a public road.

Quote:you still have to train yourself to drive and prove to the state you can drive properly  

And so many drivers still can't drive properly. They kill everyday.

Quote:before you get a licence and you have to have the money to buy it, and while you drive you have to maintain a good driving record.

Pretty much the same with a gun. You get the money, apply for a license to buy or carry, and you have to have a good shooting record.
There are some loopholes that you might be surprised that I agree with you on. I think if someone carries in public that they should have to pass a course and proficiency test along with a study of the laws pertaining to firearms.

Quote:Point being we make way too many guns and we don't do enough to vet those who buy them.

Not really. Actually there are too many goddamned cars built and sold. I'm sick of the traffic and also the crazies that almost run me over daily.

Quote:I am tired of the bullshit "don't punish the responsible owners". BULLSHIT, legal at time of buy does not prevent someone from harming others after that legal buy.

And it doesn't prevent idiots driving 5000 pound vehicles irresponsibly.

Look at yourself. You think you are responsible with a vehicle but a lit cigarette that you chose to light up resulted in you losing control of the van you were driving. How alarming.