(June 12, 2016 at 9:29 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 7:31 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: This resonates with me, as someone who was raised by a very violent and abusive Mother.  I was required to call her "Ma'am", kiss her goodnight, and say "I love you".  Of course, I knew that if I didn't, I would get my head put through the nearest wall.  Did I want her to love me?  Oh yes.  And I desperately wanted to not have to be afraid anymore.  That never happened.
     It strikes me as much the same with the god concept.  Sure, you're supposed to praise because you have been "saved" from the ultimate eternal torture.  (Similar to "Yay, she didn't hit me today.")  But there is this constant message of being born FILTHY and sinful, the constant fear of being truly unworthy and disobedient, and the constant begging for forgiveness and promises to do better.

You're worthless, the only thing that makes you not worthless is ME, and you if you don't obey me every second I may have to torture you forever no matter what you say. 

It also sounds a lot like an abusive husband.  

I am sorry for your childhood experiences. That is a sad way to grow up. 
I can see why you think that is what Christianity is about. However it is not.
We are in a state that we cannot have a relationship with God. That state can, if left unchanged forever separate us from God. However, the entire NT is about how you can repair that relationship. Once you have that relationship, like any other, it takes choices every day that keep that relationship in good repair. The Christians I know do not come close to thinking like you described. They want that relationship to succeed because it brings peace and joy. The motivation to become a Christian is not fear, it is the relationship and the repair that is desired. As you pointed out, a relationship based on fear is miserable. 
Here was a quick list I saw when I searched for Bible/Joy: http://dailyverses.net/joy

"Relationships" with imaginary friends apparently require one to tie their brains in knots and pickle them in formaldehyde.   

Isn't it amusing how these christard preachers come here assuming that we were never xtian?  I was a xtian for over 45 years, SteveII.  I had to memorize a Bible passage every day growing up and recite it before dinner each night.  I practically lived at the church.  It took me a LONG time to realize that your favorite invisible sky daddy doesn't exist.

(June 13, 2016 at 3:45 pm)Drich Wrote:

(June 13, 2016 at 1:02 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Drich,

It may be thought that by serving people in the right way for God it shows a person's respect or reverence for him and the person's goodwill towards other people and God.

I think there are many ways a person may work to serve people and God and goodwill must be the force behind serving people and God.

I think it may be thought that a man may be thought of as a brother, friend, parent, son, teacher, servant, doctor and so on and it may be thought of how many different ways a man's goodwill may be shown in the various positions.

The first of the greatest commands is to Love God with all your being, the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. In these two command Jesus said the whole Law can be honored or full filled. Meaning if one can love God with all that he is and simply Love his neighbor as himself then then the basis of all of God's law can be honored.

Now I completely understand what you are saying, in that loving your fellow man is apart of loving God. The answer to that is both yes and no. No in that if by simply loving your fellow man was the same as loving God with all of your heart mind spirit and strength their would not need to be the second of the two greatest commands Jesus points out. ...And Yes loving your fellow Man is the apart of Loving God, because loving only those who love God follow His commands.. and as "loving your neighbor" represents 50% of all of God's commands one can not love God without loving his neighbor.

But again, the love of God does not stop there with loving your fellow man. The love God asks of us encompasses all of our being, this is something we do not have access to and is impossible to do with out God helping us. so then again we take what we have access to (our will/minds) and ask God to turn the rest of ourselves over to us so that we may choose to give him the Agape' asked of us.

Drich,

I think it's beneficial to seek to agree with who we may talk to as much as possible and that sometimes it's not possible to agree. I'm guessing you remember the words blessed are the peacemakers.

I think we may agree that serving people is a part of serving God and that God is the highest command giver and if people want us to obey different commands than what God wants us to obey then we should disobey any wrong commands of people. 

I think we may agree that if we are willing to serve God then that is a good condition to be in and that by God's goodwill we are given sayings to learn how to obey God and serve man and that respect or reverence is a part of it.

We may agree that wisdom and knowledge are partly beyond words and that all of it comes from God and that, that wisdom and knowledge becomes like a part of our being and our thinking of God goes higher.

Thinking about love your neighbor as yourself, I guess you agree that, that commandment should be used every time we speak and in every internet forum post we make, judging which words to use and thinking of how they sound if they are said to you by someone else, keeping in mind what may be the condition of the person or persons who you plan to speak to and I think you may use the command in replying to me.  Will you tell me if you used the command ?

(June 12, 2016 at 4:52 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Love... perhaps the greatest mystery of all.  Is it a feeling, or is it a choice?  The greatest commandment says to love God with all your heart.  This would seem to imply that love is a choice, that we can choose to love or not love God.  Those who advocate that love is a choice talk of choosing to commit to the one you love and engage in loving acts towards the loved one, but do these same choices apply to loving a disembodied spirit?  Loving somebody with all your heart and mind and soul seems to speak to love as a feeling.  Does the heart or soul choose?  Is it possible to choose to "love God with all your heart and soul and mind"?

I don't believe that love is a choice at all. I think it is a compulsion, a human need. When we reach out to others and that resonates with them, its basis is formed. At that point, the emotional exchange can, but doesn't always, grow into love.

I cannot "choose" to love god(s), simply because there's no feedback loop reinforcng the emotions. They never talk back to me.

My faith in love, and it is indeed a faith, relies upon the other returning and resonating my feelings. That is noticeably absent in the context of worship.

(June 13, 2016 at 7:08 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(June 12, 2016 at 4:52 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Love... perhaps the greatest mystery of all.  Is it a feeling, or is it a choice?  The greatest commandment says to love God with all your heart.  This would seem to imply that love is a choice, that we can choose to love or not love God.  Those who advocate that love is a choice talk of choosing to commit to the one you love and engage in loving acts towards the loved one, but do these same choices apply to loving a disembodied spirit?  Loving somebody with all your heart and mind and soul seems to speak to love as a feeling.  Does the heart or soul choose?  Is it possible to choose to "love God with all your heart and soul and mind"?

I don't believe that love is a choice at all. I think it is a compulsion, a human need. When we reach out to others and that resonates with them, its basis is formed. At that point, the emotional exchange can, but doesn't always, grow into love.

I cannot "choose" to love god(s), simply because there's no feedback loop reinforcng the emotions. They never talk back to me.

My faith in love, and it is indeed a faith, relies upon the other returning and resonating my feelings. That is noticeably absent in the context of worship.

Thumpalumpacus,

Do you think an example of a high level of goodwill is when a person gives for free?

(June 13, 2016 at 8:53 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Thumpalumpacus,

Do you think an example of a high level of goodwill is when a person gives for free?

Not necessarily. Enablers give addicts money for their addiction, but is it good will? Or are there other motives in play? Catholics give money freely from the pulpit, but if that money goes to supporting the priest molesting their child, their good will doesn't matter a bit. A god might climb up on a cross to "give his life" for human redemption, but if he demands sacrifice in return, is that really good will? Or is it extortion? Or is it quid pro quo?

Or is it nonsense?

Your question is so vague that I could hypothesize all day long. I don't think you'll care for it, though.

(June 13, 2016 at 9:46 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(June 13, 2016 at 8:53 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Thumpalumpacus,

Do you think an example of a high level of goodwill is when a person gives for free?

Not necessarily. Enablers give addicts money for their addiction, but is it good will? Or are there other motives in play? Catholics give money freely from the pulpit, but if that money goes to supporting the priest molesting their child, their good will doesn't matter a bit. A god might climb up on a cross to "give his life" for human redemption, but if he demands sacrifice in return, is that really good will? Or is it extortion? Or is it quid pro quo?

Or is it nonsense?

Your question is so vague that I could hypothesize all day long. I don't think you'll care for it, though.

Thumpalumpacus,

I may ask people questions sometimes to investigate what their level of thinking is so I understand them better.

Some of my thoughts about it are that a high level of goodwill may be thought of in giving to charity or it may be called giving for free like someone saying some helpful words.

It may be thought that I'm not a "Catholic".  It may be thought God wants people to obey his commands but that people have the potential to choose what they want to obey.  It may be thought that the Christian teaching is that God is not in need of anything.  It may be thought that if he needed anything then he isn't a supreme being.

Better to love the "lord" with a brick at high velocity.

You need your heart.

(June 13, 2016 at 10:22 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Thumpalumpacus,

Some of my thoughts about it are that a high level of goodwill may be thought of in giving to charity or it may be called giving for free like someone saying some helpful words.

It may be thought that I'm not a "Catholic".  It may be thought God wants people to obey his commands but that people have the potential to choose what they want to obey.  It may be thought that the Christian teaching is that God is not in need of anything.  It may be thought that if he needed anything then he isn't a supreme being.

That's nice ... thanks for sharing.

(June 13, 2016 at 10:31 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

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(June 13, 2016 at 10:22 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Thumpalumpacus,

Some of my thoughts about it are that a high level of goodwill may be thought of in giving to charity or it may be called giving for free like someone saying some helpful words.

It may be thought that I'm not a "Catholic".  It may be thought God wants people to obey his commands but that people have the potential to choose what they want to obey.  It may be thought that the Christian teaching is that God is not in need of anything.  It may be thought that if he needed anything then he isn't a supreme being.

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That's nice ... thanks for sharing.

I was thinking, What a bunch of hooey.

(June 13, 2016 at 10:31 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(June 13, 2016 at 10:22 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Thumpalumpacus,

Some of my thoughts about it are that a high level of goodwill may be thought of in giving to charity or it may be called giving for free like someone saying some helpful words.

It may be thought that I'm not a "Catholic".  It may be thought God wants people to obey his commands but that people have the potential to choose what they want to obey.  It may be thought that the Christian teaching is that God is not in need of anything.  It may be thought that if he needed anything then he isn't a supreme being.

That's nice ... thanks for sharing.

Thumpalumpacus,

You're welcome.