I think most theists in America are fairly secular. They claim religion because they don't want to disappoint their mother. But they don't practice the religion or think much about whether or not they really believe. People think America is super religious but it's just because our comparatively small group of fundies and evangelicals is very loud.

(June 18, 2016 at 4:01 pm)madog Wrote: Mmm, they don't have much influence on stuff like gay marriage, abortion, etc. etc, in the UK. it appears to me they do in the USA ...

In the UK, nowadays - perhaps. But you do know, that in Ireland, for example, condoms were illegal until 1980's, right? And divorce was banned until 1996. In catholic and orthodox dominated eastern Europe no one's even talking about the possibility of legalizing gay marriage and in many cases - abortion.

(June 18, 2016 at 4:01 pm)madog Wrote: Do I like them being anywhere in a civilized society ... no ..... but whatever influence they have doesn't appear to be as apparent as what I perceive to be the case in the USA ...

Yes, well - the Kardashians and Justin Bieber appear to have "influence" in the USA. It's the power of media. And again - religious ideas have a strong hold on a fairly large portion of US population, but the religious organizations themselves are not strong enough to successfully oppose the political process in any kind of unified fashion. That's why there even is a debate over social issues and a debate, that the religious side is slowly losing.

(June 18, 2016 at 4:01 pm)madog Wrote: What I can say is I got looked at stranger, when I declared I was a "born again Christian" than when I said I didn't believe in a God ... and that was 40 years ago, the church has lost even more influence in the UK since then .....

Sure, but UK situation is fairly unique, what with religion having been actually incorporated into the state and kept firmly in its place. Being overly enthusiastic about religion is seen a bit like confessing one's undying love for the Royal Mail, or the London Underground.

(June 18, 2016 at 5:02 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(June 18, 2016 at 4:01 pm)madog Wrote: Mmm, they don't have much influence on stuff like gay marriage, abortion, etc. etc, in the UK. it appears to me they do in the USA ...

In the UK, nowadays - perhaps. But you do know, that in Ireland, for example, condoms were illegal until 1980's, right? And divorce was banned until 1996. In catholic and orthodox dominated eastern Europe no one's even talking about the possibility of legalizing gay marriage and in many cases - abortion.

I won't comment on what the actual situation is in the USA, I am on the outside looking in so my perception is skewed, the reason why I ask.

As Regards Ireland it is a secular state ......

(June 18, 2016 at 1:34 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

The shit is dying out.

It sort of fits with the availability of information.

(June 18, 2016 at 5:24 pm)madog Wrote: I won't comment on what the actual situation is in the USA, I am on the outside looking in so my perception is skewed, the reason why I ask.

I've never been to US and I don't consider myself an expert in any way, but I'm inclined to think, that American apparent religiosity is mainly a failure of education. In Europe even religious people seem to be familiar enough with science and history, not to have to rely on literal interpretations of religious teachings for their cosmology, biology and such.

(June 18, 2016 at 5:24 pm)madog Wrote: As Regards Ireland it is a secular state ......

...where secular authorities traditionally allowed for a huge influence of religion on their policies, as is still the case in a great number of nominally secular states. Ban on divorce and contraception was entirely motivated by religion.

As religious as Americans may appear - USA is a secular country. And sure - historically there were times, when puritan religious morality had strong influence on politics - like the whole prohibition "experiment" - but at least you couldn't go to jail for a pack of rubbers in recent history.

(June 18, 2016 at 5:48 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote: In Europe even religious people seem to be familiar enough with science and history, not to have to rely on literal interpretations of religious teachings for their cosmology, biology and such.

And you would be wrong in overestimating the European education systems. Religiosity in Europe is weaker in general, but you can still see the same gap as in the USA. Between the large hubs and the rural areas.

(June 18, 2016 at 5:52 pm)abaris Wrote: And you would be wrong in overestimating the European education systems. Religiosity in Europe is weaker in general, but you can still see the same gap as in the USA. Between the large hubs and the rural areas.

True - most the rednecks in Europe are as clueless as their counterparts anywhere else. Still - in quite a lot of Europe higher education was free until quite recently, so even some of those country bumpkins were able to get some sort of education - more so than in US, anyway.

(June 18, 2016 at 4:35 pm)Losty Wrote: I think most theists in America are fairly secular. They claim religion because they don't want to disappoint their mother. But they don't practice the religion or think much about whether or not they really believe. People think America is super religious but it's just because our comparatively small group of fundies and evangelicals is very loud.

Studiously not thinking about one's religious beliefs or their consequences- yet somehow thinking one knows anyway- is pretty much the American evangelical past time, really.

(June 18, 2016 at 5:48 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(June 18, 2016 at 5:24 pm)madog Wrote: As Regards Ireland it is a secular state ......

...where secular authorities traditionally allowed for a huge influence of religion on their policies, as is still the case in a great number of nominally secular states. Ban on divorce and contraception was entirely motivated by religion.

As religious as Americans may appear - USA is a secular country. And sure - historically there were times, when puritan religious morality had strong influence on politics - like the whole prohibition "experiment" - but at least you couldn't go to jail for a pack of rubbers in recent history.

I have no thoughts on Ireland, even though my two daughters are Irish citizens as they live in Spain ....

(June 18, 2016 at 5:59 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote: Still - in quite a lot of Europe higher education was free until quite recently, so even some of those country bumpkins were able to get some sort of education - more so than in US, anyway.

Free isn't free. You still need to eat, to wear cloths and to find some place to bunk. If your family can't afford to feed you through years of university, you're screwed and left with the same deal many Americans get. And that's pretty much the case in Europe also. There's next to no upwards mobility in most European countries. Born poor, pretty good chance to die equally poor.