Are the churches using atheists to gain more converts?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Are the churches using atheists to gain more converts?

Better than using us for kindling.

Boru

[robvalue]

It seems to me each new generation is more and more fed up with the mindless bigotry, and less easy to convince thanks to the internet and the constant progress of science.

Only by insulating/threatening will religion thrive.

[GUBU]

How does 94% to 84% count as dying out?

It's a start. Ireland followed a simple decline until the 1980's when the numbers simply fell off a cliff, before the scandals emerged.

A ten percent decline is very possibly the first stones of an avalanche, or the numbers are being disguised, again like in Ireland, where people with no actual belif still profess a cultural belonging.

[GUBU]

In the UK, nowadays - perhaps. But you do know, that in Ireland, for example, condoms were illegal until 1980's, right? And divorce was banned until 1996. In catholic and orthodox dominated eastern Europe no one's even talking about the possibility of legalizing gay marriage and in many cases - abortion.

I won't comment on what the actual situation is in the USA, I am on the outside looking in so my perception is skewed, the reason why I ask.

As Regards Ireland it is a secular state ......

De iure it is, de facto... if you've ever seen the angelus on the national broadcaster or witnessed the requirement to have religious patronage in all state schools, you'd see differently.

The Irish people are secular, the state institutions still defer to John Charles McQuaid in a lot of areas.

[madog]

I won't comment on what the actual situation is in the USA, I am on the outside looking in so my perception is skewed, the reason why I ask.

As Regards Ireland it is a secular state ......

De iure it is, de facto... if you've ever seen the angelus on the national broadcaster or witnessed the requirement to have religious patronage in all state schools, you'd see differently.

The Irish people are secular, the state institutions still defer to John Charles McQuaid in a lot of areas.

I wasn't saying anything about Ireland but the UK which is not secular .... I merely pointed out it was secular, which it is .....

I have no inner understanding of Ireland, USA or any other secular system ....

[Brian37]

This really interests me, I see all the debates happening in Christian churches with atheists and have a sneaky feeling that those churches are using the debates to get more converts? I personally hope this is back firing on the churches, so would appreciate any thoughts or examples either way ...

Is religion growing or decreasing in the USA?

All religions in human history are self serving. Religions is an artificial construct that sets up social order. Every religion will point to advantages such as kind motifs, while pointing at the "disadvantages of others". It stems from evolutionary group survival.

Humans evolved to group and seek patterns, the problem is, at the same time, even today, most humans don't have the critical thinking skills to understand, while a group can be successful buying into an idea, that idea can be completely false. Just like the Ancient Egyptians were successful for 3,000 years in their belief in their polytheistic gods that in reality were never real.

Of course they do that. But not just with atheists, but anything they see good or bad. They point to Islam and say "I am not like them", they point to addicts who got sober. They point to survival of accidents or violence. But not just Christians, all religions do this to greater or lesser degrees. It amounts to our species not accepting that there is no magic to the good or bad that happen in life.

Our species behaviors are not in holy books or religions. There is no magic to life. Our species behaviors both good and bad are in our evolution. What you are talking about is mere marketing. And like any product, religions sell the same way, through narcissism and vanity "look how good I am", or fear "You need this anti wrinkle cream or people will think you are imperfect".

Religions, and I do mean all of them, work just like Coke vs Pepsi regardless of empty calories. Emotion sells.

[GUBU]

De iure it is, de facto... if you've ever seen the angelus on the national broadcaster or witnessed the requirement to have religious patronage in all state schools, you'd see differently.

The Irish people are secular, the state institutions still defer to John Charles McQuaid in a lot of areas.

I wasn't saying anything about Ireland but the UK which is not secular .... I merely pointed out it was secular, which it is .....

I have no inner understanding of Ireland, USA or any other secular system ....

In terms of how each state works, I'd rate the UK (minus Northern Ireland, which is a special kind of basket case) as far more secular than Ireland. In the UK you've got a state religion but it doesn't interfere in what the state does all that much, whereas in Ireland you've no state religion, but the "majority" religion still interferes far too much in too many areas (for example, our current non-abortion law says that if a woman has an abortion in Ireland she can be jailed for up to 14 years along with the doctor who performs the operation, leading to stuff like this {caution: The situation described is pretty gruesome}).

That's what happens when a country lets religion have too much power.

[madog]

I wasn't saying anything about Ireland but the UK which is not secular .... I merely pointed out it was secular, which it is .....

I have no inner understanding of Ireland, USA or any other secular system ....

In terms of how each state works, I'd rate the UK (minus Northern Ireland, which is a special kind of basket case) as far more secular than Ireland. In the UK you've got a state religion but it doesn't interfere in what the state does all that much, whereas in Ireland you've no state religion, but the "majority" religion still interferes far too much in too many areas (for example, our current non-abortion law says that if a woman has an abortion in Ireland she can be jailed for up to 14 years along with the doctor who performs the operation, leading to stuff like this {caution: The situation described is pretty gruesome}).

That's what happens when a country lets religion have too much power.

I don't disagree with what you say, but there are arguments that putting a religion in a back closet along with a monarchy castrates religion and the monarchy making them quaint figure heads  .... 

Whereas secularism leads to actual religion dominating the state?

I don't have an opinion or answer on whether secular states or non secular states work better, nor was it any part of my intention in this thread ...

I simply answered someone that used Ireland as an example of a non secular state ....

[Homeless Nutter]

I don't disagree with what you say, but there are arguments that putting a religion in a back closet along with a monarchy castrates religion and the monarchy making them quaint figure heads  .... [...]

But that only works, as long as you have a single main religion, which happens to have been established by the monarchy - long time ago. If any modern democracy tried to start a national religion - it would be political suicide, in the eyes of the international public opinion, because all the disenfranchised minorities in that country would - rightly - call persecution and breach of the freedom of religion.

And anyway - UK is starting to have religious fundamentalism problem, mainly of the islamic variety, thanks to the muslim immigrants, who do not wish to have the Queen as the head of their religion and would very much like to have their own theocracy established to have authority over them, with sharia law, female circumcision and all that jazz. And let's not forget Northern Ireland, where religion still makes mortal enemies out of neighbors, although we don't hear about it that much anymore.

Also let's not forget - UK may not be very religious, but it still has inbred German overlords as a branch of government, so swings and roundabouts, I guess...

[madog]

I don't disagree with what you say, but there are arguments that putting a religion in a back closet along with a monarchy castrates religion and the monarchy making them quaint figure heads  .... [...]

But that only works, as long as you have a single main religion, which happens to have been established by the monarchy - long time ago. If any modern democracy tried to start a national religion - it would be  political suicide,  in the eyes of the international public opinion, because all the disenfranchised minorities in that country would - rightly - call persecution and breach of the freedom of religion.

And anyway - UK is starting to have religious fundamentalism problem, mainly of the islamic variety, thanks to the muslim immigrants, who do not wish to have the Queen as the head of their religion and would very much like to have their own theocracy established to have authority over them, with sharia law, female circumcision and all that jazz. And let's not forget Northern Ireland, where religion still makes mortal enemies out of neighbors, although we don't hear about it that much anymore.

Also let's not forget - UK may not be very religious, but it still has inbred German overlords as a branch of government, so swings and roundabouts, I guess...

Why are you trying to draw me into an argument I never made ... note I stated there are arguments, THERE ARE ... not mine ....

I am prepared to learn, but I don't learn when only negatives and no solutions are offered ....

I don't mind joining a debate on secular vs non secular ... maybe learning and adding my opinions BUT I SIMPLY STATED THE FACT THAT IRELAND IS SECULAR   which it is, no point was being made ...