Final bellyaching.

Such a pretty house and such a pretty garden

Bruises that won't heal

Not a bad impression of Achmed The Dead Terrorist ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_conti...JMv_XPmvfQ

Double post

(June 19, 2016 at 2:49 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Political-Islamism probably wouldn't be anywhere near as big a problem today, at least in The West, had the Western Left and liberals put their foot down and stood by secular values back in the 70s and 80s before the movement really took hold.

You mean like when the Western Right tried to prop up the shah of Iran?  Or when the Western Right tried to fight the Russians in Afghanistan by arming the mujahadin?

No, I think we're discussing domestic actions, not foreign adventures. At least, that is the predicate of my agreement.

(June 18, 2016 at 11:08 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: The regressive Left, a lot of times, do inadvertently paint Muslims with a broad brush too with this "oppressed, offended Muslim" narrative, and it comes off hypocritical as they're chastising the Right for doing it. It ignores the French Muslims who were shouting "Je Suis Charlie" alongside everyone else (and getting threatened for it), and it ignores the Iranian woman taking un-veiled selfies on Facebook (and getting threatened for it).

In my opinion, you're mixing apples and oranges there. One of the first victims of the Charly attack was a muslim police officer, socialised in France. But you also forget the Banlieus, where lack of outlook, mixed with belief creates a toxic climate. That's where the attackers came from. They were fair game to be radicalised because they didn't have an outlook in life.

You also forget the historical role of all the Middle Eastern countries. First colonialised by the Ottoman empire, later coloialised by the West and never being able to form an identity of their own. Even more so, since the Middle East doesn't have any grown borders. These countries were drawn up at some colonial office at Londong or Paris, whithout any regards to religious, cultural or ethnic affiliation. Later on they went straight to dictatorship, sometimes courtesy of the West, sometimes kept in the saddle by the Soviet Union. All of this adds to the virulence of the problem.

(June 19, 2016 at 11:51 am)abaris Wrote:

(June 18, 2016 at 11:08 pm)Yeauxleaux Wrote: The regressive Left, a lot of times, do inadvertently paint Muslims with a broad brush too with this "oppressed, offended Muslim" narrative, and it comes off hypocritical as they're chastising the Right for doing it. It ignores the French Muslims who were shouting "Je Suis Charlie" alongside everyone else (and getting threatened for it), and it ignores the Iranian woman taking un-veiled selfies on Facebook (and getting threatened for it).

In my opinion, you're mixing apples and oranges there. One of the first victims of the Charly attack was a muslim police officer, socialised in France. But you also forget the Banlieus, where lack of outlook, mixed with belief creates a toxic climate. That's where the attackers came from. They were fair game to be radicalised because they didn't have an outlook in life.

You also forget the historical role of all the Middle Eastern countries. First colonialised by the Ottoman empire, later coloialised by the West and never being able to form an identity of their own. Even more so, since the Middle East doesn't have any grown borders. These countries were drawn up at some colonial office at Londong or Paris, whithout any regards to religious, cultural or ethnic affiliation. Later on they went straight to dictatorship, sometimes courtesy of the West, sometimes kept in the saddle by the Soviet Union. All of this adds to the virulence of the problem.

Yes, Mr knows it all but unnable to stand. Keep riding your high horse. Spears work for those. There is nothing really damning as those so keen to say something, failing inn providing sollutions. I have withnessed you pointinting fingers and being all sanctimonious doing so, a valiant effort, but then, you are not presenting sollutions. Some like you act very smart, some others DO. Enjoy your life as the "velho do restelho" position.

Those that talk, spend time that should be used... doing.

(June 19, 2016 at 12:37 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Yes, Mr knows it all but unnable to stand. Keep riding your high horse.  Spears work for those. There is nothing really damning as those so keen to say something, failing inn  providing sollutions. I have withnessed you pointinting fingers and being all sanctimonious doing so, a valiant effort, but then, you are not presenting sollutions. Some like you act very smart, some others DO. Enjoy your life as the "velho do restelho" position.

Have I attacked him personally? Does having a different opinion in a debate warrant a personal attack? Just curious. If I have a different opinion, should I not say anything?

I said, in my opinion. Which is up for debate.

(June 19, 2016 at 12:38 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Those that talk, spend time that should be used... doing.

Just curious, did you by any chance misunderstand my use of "you" in the youth thread?

(June 19, 2016 at 11:51 am)abaris Wrote: You also forget the historical role of all the Middle Eastern countries. First colonialised by the Ottoman empire, later coloialised by the West and never being able to form an identity of their own. Even more so, since the Middle East doesn't have any grown borders. These countries were drawn up at some colonial office at Londong or Paris, whithout any regards to religious, cultural or ethnic affiliation. Later on they went straight to dictatorship, sometimes courtesy of the West, sometimes kept in the saddle by the Soviet Union. All of this adds to the virulence of the problem.

I can see this more now and I think it's best (on a political level) for Western powers to just stay out of most Middle Eastern affairs, trade sanctions if need be but no more military intervention or arming anyone. I just think it needs to happen more on a social solidarity level, where people support the dissenting Muslims and free-thinkers within these societies while showing disapproval to the bigotry of those systems.

But my comments earlier were more in response to how, strictly in Western societies, the regressive left have painted the hardliners as the most authentic Muslims and do it at the expense of reformist Muslims.