I have proof that there is an enormous metal man that eats scrap metal.....I can show the book that says so.

(June 19, 2016 at 10:18 am)madog Wrote: Laying down his own life purposefully is suicide ...  [1]

3) You are trying to use apostles to prove "Jesus the son of God", without a "Jesus" there are no apostles [2]


So basically all your evidence and faith for the most extraordinary claims imaginable are based on some Fishermen claiming to have been disciples of the son of God decades after his apparent Crucifixion ..... [3]

4)  I am not trying to interpret text as it didn't come from the alleged messenger .... you keep trying to make me go forward in time and work back .... [4]

5) I don't deny fishermen wrote stories, set decades after the main character died, that propelled them into scriptures as apostles, all that tells me is they made themselves pretty important with their claims of being the disciples of the son of God. Yes that would further their own ends ... [5]

6) Very few theists or atheists agree on anything so nothing new there .... [6]

1) Something tells me you're not open to a discussion on this point...

2) How many times am I going to have to tell you this: No, I am not trying to prove that Jesus is the son of God. <= Read that again. Then re-read these:

"I know it's Christ's message because of faith . . . historical evidence does not definitively demonstrate that [it is Christ's message] scientifically ..." -Me HERE

"Did Christ suffer and die and rise from the dead in such a way that I am reconciled to God and am promised divine happiness? Anyone who claims to know that in any way other than faith is not speaking well." HERE (i.e. it is not demonstrable)

"Do I have verifiable historical evidence that demonstrates that Jesus is the Son of God, rose from the dead, and that his death reconciles us to God? No." HERE

"7) I can't, in principle, verify the truth of the data of revelation by scientific means (e.g. I can't verify that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by scientific methods)." HERE

"Why would you think I would force an atheist to accept that the Gospel message is authentically Christ's and therefore God's?" HERE

This is exhausting.


3) No

4) This isn't an interpretation? "Laying down his own life purposefully is suicide ..."

5) Great. Now, if you care to intelligently discuss those made up stories (as you said you wanted to do HERE: "I can discuss someones fictional message without believing in the credibility of the message ... stop being silly"; and began to do in the OP), understanding the fictional world the authors created will be a great help in doing that. Agreed?

6) Exactly, they don't agree on much. So when scholarly atheists and theists DO agree that the narratives about Jesus are not vicarious suicide narratives, it should make someone who shares your opinion stop and consider the possibility that you don't have all of the information to form your own intelligent judgment.

(June 19, 2016 at 4:15 pm)Expired Wrote: I have proof that there is an enormous metal man that eats scrap metal.....I can show the book that says so.

Found something you could beat up on instead:

(June 19, 2016 at 4:31 pm)Ignorant Wrote:

(June 19, 2016 at 4:15 pm)Expired Wrote: I have proof that there is an enormous metal man that eats scrap metal.....I can show the book that says so.

Found something you could beat up on instead:

I'm not the one who puts the fear of god into children, stick your strawman.

(June 19, 2016 at 4:36 pm)Expired Wrote: I'm not the one who puts the fear of god into children, stick your strawman.

Sadly, all I can say to this is you are right. The Church will have much to answer for.

@ThomasKelly: Sending an unsolicited PM doesn't prove your point any more than does repeating it out here, so I ask you again: WHY did anyone in the Jesus scenario have to be murdered at all? You analogy to soldiers going to war is badly flawed, as deaths resulting from war are not generally considered to be 'murder'.

Boru

@ThomasKelly: I do not discuss topics via private messages.

Boru

(June 17, 2016 at 1:10 pm)Thomas Kelly252525 Wrote: Jesus Christ may be compared to a situation where someone must be murdered in order for someone else to survive. 

For example a parent and a child.

Do you think the parent should be willing to be murdered to save their child ?

In the Bible did any parent sacrifice himself to save his child?

(June 19, 2016 at 4:42 pm)Ignorant Wrote:

(June 19, 2016 at 4:36 pm)Expired Wrote: I'm not the one who puts the fear of god into children, stick your strawman.

Sadly, all I can say to this is you are right. The Church will have much to answer for.

Are you against indoctrinating children into religion?

Christians merely worship what they could never achieve at becoming. They worship the greatest delusion that imagination can provide, that they are something in a universe that cares nothing for them.