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RE: Someone stole the body!
June 17, 2016 at 9:04 am
I'm here all week, folks!
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Someone stole the body!
June 17, 2016 at 12:33 pm
(June 16, 2016 at 11:09 pm)Stimbo Wrote: (June 15, 2016 at 10:39 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Was Jesus crucified prior to the Passover meal or after:
Split the difference; during. He wanted someone to put him up for the night.
"You don't need facts when you got Jesus." -Pastor Deacon Fred, Landover Baptist Church
: True Christian is a Trademark of the Landover Baptist Church. I have no affiliation with this fine group of True Christians because I can't afford their tithing requirements but would like to be. Maybe someday the Lord will bless me with enough riches that I am able to.
And for the lovers of Poe, here's your winking smiley:
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RE: Someone stole the body!
June 25, 2016 at 10:05 pm
(This post was last modified: June 25, 2016 at 10:08 pm by Godscreated.)
(June 16, 2016 at 9:35 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (June 16, 2016 at 8:39 pm)Godschild Wrote:
Quote:So here's the scene in John's gospel: on the day leading up to Passover, and Passover will commence at 6 o'clock with the evening meal, on the day leading up to that Passover meal is the day when all the lambs are slaughtered and everyone goes to the temple to get their lamb for the passover meal. In Jerusalem this would have meant thousands of lambs being slaughtered all at one time. And in John's gospel that's the day on which Jesus is crucified. So that quite literally the dramatic scene in John's gospel has Jesus hanging on the cross while the lambs are being slaughtered for passover. John's gospel is forcing us, dramatically at least, through the storytelling mode, to think of Jesus as a passover lamb. Jesus doesn't eat a passover meal, Jesus is the passover meal, at least within the Christian mind in the way that John tells the story.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/.../john.html
Quote:One of the nation's foremost religion scholars, L. Michael White has a special interest in the social world of early Christians and Jews in the Greco-Roman period. His forthcoming book, Images of Jesus: The Shape of the Gospels and the Making of Tradition, deals extensively with the development of the gospels in early Christian history. White's distinguished career includes academic appointments at Yale University, Oberlin College, and University of Texas at Austin, where he currently serves as professor of classics and director of the religious studies program. White has published six books and over thirty articles and book reviews on Christianity and has received numerous awards and honors, including two National Endowment for the Humanities research fellowships. He is active as a program leader in the Society of Biblical Literature and is currently series editor for the Archaeology and Biblical Studies Series. He has served on the editorial boards of The Journal of Early Christian Studies and Biblical Archaeologist. White has served on archaeological excavations in Israel and also has done extensive field research in Italy, Greece, and Turkey. He received his Ph.D. and master of divinity degrees from Yale University.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...html#white
Right, Passover was when Christ was sacrificed, as you said, it started on Thursday at 6:00 PM (sunset) and ended on Friday at 6:00 PM (sunset) when He was buried. John did not record the upper room Passover meal, he had his reasons and probably because everyone knew that fact by the time He wrote his gospel. You have not proved any difference in the four gospels on this point. I just can not figure out why you keep insisting to try and prove something that just doesn't exist. I also made a mistake on my last post in saying Jesus was crucified on the day after Passover, old brain I guess anyway it was a mistake and I wanted to clear that up.
Sorry for the delay in answering I've been every busy and just haven't had the time till tonight.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Someone stole the body!
June 25, 2016 at 10:45 pm
(June 25, 2016 at 10:05 pm)Godschild Wrote: (June 16, 2016 at 9:35 pm)Jehanne Wrote: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/.../john.html
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...html#white
Right, Passover was when Christ was sacrificed, as you said, it started on Thursday at 6:00 PM (sunset) and ended on Friday at 6:00 PM (sunset) when He was buried. John did not record the upper room Passover meal, he had his reasons and probably because everyone knew that fact by the time He wrote his gospel. You have not proved any difference in the four gospels on this point. I just can not figure out why you keep insisting to try and prove something that just doesn't exist. I also made a mistake on my last post in saying Jesus was crucified on the day after Passover, old brain I guess anyway it was a mistake and I wanted to clear that up.
Sorry for the delay in answering I've been every busy and just haven't had the time till tonight.
GC
Okay, GC, humor me; how about Quirinius being the Roman governor of Syria, as recorded in the Gospel of Luke:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius
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RE: Someone stole the body!
June 29, 2016 at 7:07 pm
(June 25, 2016 at 10:45 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (June 25, 2016 at 10:05 pm)Godschild Wrote:
Okay, GC, humor me; how about Quirinius being the Roman governor of Syria, as recorded in the Gospel of Luke:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius
You do not seem easy to humor, or even willingly accepting of the truth I've shown you. As I said before when you asked this, it's an unsettled question and that I would look into new info if there is some, I've been very busy and haven't had time.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Someone stole the body!
June 29, 2016 at 8:08 pm
(June 29, 2016 at 7:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: (June 25, 2016 at 10:45 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Okay, GC, humor me; how about Quirinius being the Roman governor of Syria, as recorded in the Gospel of Luke:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius
You do not seem easy to humor, or even willingly accepting of the truth I've shown you. As I said before when you asked this, it's an unsettled question and that I would look into new info if there is some, I've been very busy and haven't had time.
GC
It is a settled question; the author of the Gospel of Luke erred.
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RE: Someone stole the body!
June 29, 2016 at 8:20 pm
Quote:It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon. "Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.
John 19:14
You've gotta stop believing your own bullshit, G-C. It just makes you look stupid.
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RE: Someone stole the body!
June 30, 2016 at 7:02 pm
(June 29, 2016 at 8:08 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (June 29, 2016 at 7:07 pm)Godschild Wrote: You do not seem easy to humor, or even willingly accepting of the truth I've shown you. As I said before when you asked this, it's an unsettled question and that I would look into new info if there is some, I've been very busy and haven't had time.
GC
It is a settled question; the author of the Gospel of Luke erred.
We do not know that for certain, it's just like other things in history we aren't sure about. I'm not going to quit believing in the Bible because some historians think they got it right. Do you believe in evolution, are you going to quit believing in it because so much of it isn't settled yet.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Someone stole the body!
June 30, 2016 at 7:07 pm
(This post was last modified: June 30, 2016 at 7:07 pm by Jehanne.)
(June 30, 2016 at 7:02 pm)Godschild Wrote: (June 29, 2016 at 8:08 pm)Jehanne Wrote: It is a settled question; the author of the Gospel of Luke erred.
We do not know that for certain, it's just like other things in history we aren't sure about. I'm not going to quit believing in the Bible because some historians think they got it right. Do you believe in evolution, are you going to quit believing in it because so much of it isn't settled yet.
GC
I believe in evolution like I believe in gravity; it's all around me, it's even within me.
History is different; it is settled. The past is done, and it cannot be "undone". That Herod the Great died in 4 BCE and that the Census of Quirinius occurred in 6 CE are undeniable facts of history, and there is no way getting around them. Therefore, the author of Luke erred.
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RE: Someone stole the body!
July 3, 2016 at 12:11 pm
(May 22, 2016 at 9:59 am)Jehanne Wrote: This is not a thread for Jesus mythists, so let's suppose that Jesus of Nazareth existed. Professor Bart Ehrman, in his 2008 debate with William Craig, gave a completely naturalistic explanation of Jesus' supposed "resurrection" from the dead, which I am going to embellish on my own:
<snip>
5) In the months and years following Jesus' death, his followers began having visions of the "risen" savior.
6) Later on the letters of Paul were written (the earliest by Paul), and then the Gospels, Mark being the first. After Mark, came Matthew and Luke, and finally, John, with its highly embellished accounts of Jesus' life, and finally, the Gospel of Peter, with even more embellishments than John. It is likely that Mark contains some authentic history of Jesus, the fact that some women went to Jesus' tomb, discovering that it was empty and fleeing because "they were afraid" with Mark clearly ending at 16:8. Later on the ending of Mark was embellished further.
My apologies if these points have been made already, but reading all 39 pages isn't much fun, so I didn't bother.
1) to 4) have some highly challengeable points, but they're not relevant here.
5) Is more serious. Having visions would make perfect sense, as they are well within the C1 Jewish religious culture, are easily explainable without religious claims, and require no substantial evidence.
The problem is, the Early Church were claiming something very different, and indeed were very clear that whatever-the- they had seen, it wasn't visions. Firstly, that the appearances were unambiguously physical in nature. Secondly, that their type and strength required a complete rethink about how vital structures of Judaism needed to change.
Having a vision of someone who died is a pretty good bit of evidence they're still dead. The Early Church claimed Jesus was alive again.
6) can also be challenged. Mark clearly expects the end of the story to be resurrection (8:31; 9:31; 10:33-34). Why the text stops at 16:8 is open to speculation. In any case, Paul's much earlier writings give us in very clear terms the Early Church's belief in a physical resurrection that was the inauguration of the Kingdom of God.
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