If someone says they are a Christian, then they're a Christian.

Anyone who thinks they have the authority to tell people otherwise is way above their station.

Anyone's own opinion on exactly what Christianity should be is a drop in the ocean of ideas.

Somewhat ironic that I'm prepared to stick up for people's religious status more than some religious people are for each other.

(July 9, 2016 at 10:51 pm)robvalue Wrote: Thanks for sharing your story

Well done for continuing to seek the truth. It's very sad that you would treated less well by some of your "friends". It shows the divisive effect religion can have.

You're right, people can easily be irrational in all kinds of ways. Religion is just one of them. It's something everyone has to keep working at, if they care about it in the first place.

Thanks for you reply! Yeah, that is very sad. I do understand some of them though, because some actually believe in an actual hell (like I did) and don't want me to risk my salvation. That makes my departure from their faith very emotionally charged. A few friends have been starting discussions with me that I didn't like at all, I mean I always like to have a good conversation in which both sides listen to each other and are willing to change their minds a bit, and from my side I try to be like that, but when I see that in every conversation that I have with them they try to start a discussion, during which they try to manipulate me emotionally, insult me, and don't listen to my points, well, I don't have much patience for that. It is sad though, when those people are otherwise friendly and you actually respect them (except for this behavior).

I don't get it, though. As far as they're concerned, you've fucked up and you'll be punished. Why must they also act less favourably to you? Isn't your impending doom enough for them? They have to add their own scorn on top of that?

You've done nothing to hurt anyone, except yourself, in their eyes.

Rob, it could be more psychological than that sadly.
Do they really believe he's going to hell? Maybe they're stuck in their own little hell on earth themselves?
Maybe they're angry at him (subconsciously) for leaving the "cult", leaving them behind and regaining his freedom and freedom of thought.
That's probably closer to the "real" truth me thinks.

(July 10, 2016 at 3:49 am)robvalue Wrote: I don't get it, though. As far as they're concerned, you've fucked up and you'll be punished. Why must they also act less favourably to you? Isn't your impending doom enough for them? They have to add their own scorn on top of that?

You've done nothing to hurt anyone, except yourself, in their eyes.

They may believe that there is hope that I may come back.

And I have always been open to changing my mind, I mean, if anyone gives me good evidence of the existence of god then I am all ears (and then specifically why their religion is true, and then why their interpretation of their religion is true... I do sympathize with them, their case is not easy to make and they are brave for trying)! Whenever someone starts a discussion with me and it becomes uninteresting (usually after a few seconds or minutes), I ask them for their reasons to believe and for their evidence. This usually ends the conversation, because even the most enthusiastic christians have very little to say here.

Of course I know this is the result and I like that, but I am genuinely curious to hear new arguments, so if they offer any I am very willing to keep talking. Not that I expect to be convinced, but I think that the fact that someone could make a new and original point would be fascinating.

Yeah. I think ig is right, they're taking it personally. Considering God is just the self, it's not surprising that religious people so often take it personally.

Fair enough, they may think there is hope you will return. But do they think the best way to try and achieve that is to be mean to you, or cut you off? How does that help?

I think in that case, they're more worried about their own accountability through association with you.

As for arguments and evidence, I personally don't care if "Christianity is true". I'm still not interested. Don't give a monkeys. I'm quite happy thinking for myself, and I'm not bowing to anyone, let alone an evil tyrant. So to me, it would be interesting to learn it's true, but nothing more. I'd be rather disheartened to learn what kind of maniac is in charge, but since whatever he is doing seems to have no effect whatsoever, I'm probably fine continuing to ignore it.

(July 10, 2016 at 4:19 am)robvalue Wrote: Yeah. I think ig is right, they're taking it personally. Considering God is just the self, it's not surprising that religious people so often take it personally.

Fair enough, they may think there is hope you will return. But do they think the best way to try and achieve that is to be mean to you, or cut you off? How does that help?

I think in that case, they're more worried about their own accountability through association with you.

As for arguments and evidence, I personally don't care if "Christianity is true". I'm still not interested. Don't give a monkeys. I'm quite happy thinking for myself, and I'm not bowing to anyone, let alone an evil tyrant. So to me, it would be interesting to learn its true, but nothing more. I'd be rather disheartened to learn what kind of maniac is in charge, but since whatever he is doing seems to have no effect whatsoever, I'm probably fine to continue to ignore it.

Yes, for the great majority of christians god is just the self. To me, that makes them seem very childish, but still it makes their religion mostly innocent, because they still follow their own intuition/feelings more than they follow their book.

For some it is not just the self (though this is still an important part), but they also believe that the story in the bible is literal and they are willing to set their priorities in life according to what is in the book. They literally believe that you could go to either heaven or hell, and they believe that it is their responsibility to guide people to the right path. I used to believe like this, which is why I can sympathize with them, because I know that they do have the courage to follow their convictions and they do see the logical consequences of their religion and are willing to not just pick the nice and happy parts of it, but also the hard parts. That said, these people are the most annoying ones, because they have such a stake in convincing you that they rarely listen, because they believe that what they have to say is much more important than whatever you could offer them. Those who do listen, well, they may lose their faith eventually.

Yes, I have seen a very real resistance to learning, just on these forums. Some theists will talk endlessly about subjects they obviously don't understand, and they refuse to go and learn anything about them. Even if you provide them links and useful resources.

Part of them must be afraid that if they understood these things better, they may actually come to realise that their beliefs are at odds with reality. If they're so confident, I don't know why picking up a science book would be so scary to them.

(July 9, 2016 at 3:16 pm)Lucifer Wrote: When I left christianity, I expected to enter this big "secular world", which should mean a lot of freedom, rationality, humanism and so forth........ Religion really limited in what I could be, it held me down, but now that I am free and able to think and act sensibly I have the opportunity to build an awesome, exciting and meaningful life with everything I could dream of.

There is no loss of freedom in christianity. We're free to accept or reject it and to leave it any time. You exercised your freedom when you left the faith. I accept Christ freely and I'm also freed from daily fears that so many people live with.

(July 10, 2016 at 3:33 am)Lucifer Wrote:

(July 10, 2016 at 3:05 am)Godschild Wrote:  Instead of saying what I usually do I want to ask a question, what makes you believe you were ever a Christian?

GC

Before I answer, let me ask you: according to you, how does one know that one is a Christian?

  I'm not playing your game, I asked an honest question and would like a honest answer.

GC