(July 12, 2016 at 12:38 pm)Lucifer Wrote: Ok I'm out. I don't have time for this, I have a great life to build!

(note to christians: feel free to interpret this as a win for you, if that is good for your ego. and thanks for reminding me that it's good that I left you folks behind)

Oh well. I was hoping to get some insight how one is a committed Christian at one point and then a committed atheist at another point and what the steps are in between. This points out a pet peeve of mine. Churches in the past have not emphasized the need for people to be able to defend their faith so the vast majority of Christians do not have answers for the common objections posed by atheists. The children are easily picked off when they leave the bubble they grew up in. This seemed to be a classic case of just that. I am actually happy for the New Atheist movement--it is lighting a fire under the church. There are more and more resources and classes on apologetics than ever before. Ironically, thanks to you all, the church will not only survive, but be stronger within the next generation! 

(July 12, 2016 at 2:59 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(July 12, 2016 at 12:38 pm)Lucifer Wrote: Ok I'm out. I don't have time for this, I have a great life to build!

(note to christians: feel free to interpret this as a win for you, if that is good for your ego. and thanks for reminding me that it's good that I left you folks behind)

Oh well. I was hoping to get some insight how one is a committed Christian at one point and then a committed atheist at another point and what the steps are in between. This points out a pet peeve of mine. Churches in the past have not emphasized the need for people to be able to defend their faith so the vast majority of Christians do not have answers for the common objections posed by atheists. The children are easily picked off when they leave the bubble they grew up in. This seemed to be a classic case of just that. I am actually happy for the New Atheist movement--it is lighting a fire under the church. There are more and more resources and classes on apologetics than ever before. Ironically, thanks to you all, the church will not only survive, but be stronger within the next generation! 

Bubble being the key word in this statement.

(July 12, 2016 at 3:00 pm)Expired Wrote:

(July 12, 2016 at 2:59 pm)SteveII Wrote: Oh well. I was hoping to get some insight how one is a committed Christian at one point and then a committed atheist at another point and what the steps are in between. This points out a pet peeve of mine. Churches in the past have not emphasized the need for people to be able to defend their faith so the vast majority of Christians do not have answers for the common objections posed by atheists. The children are easily picked off when they leave the bubble they grew up in. This seemed to be a classic case of just that. I am actually happy for the New Atheist movement--it is lighting a fire under the church. There are more and more resources and classes on apologetics than ever before. Ironically, thanks to you all, the church will not only survive, but be stronger within the next generation! 

Bubble being the key word in this statement.

I have no problem characterizing it like that because it is true. It is a disservice to our children to teach them one thing and then not be able to defend it against common arguments that have had answers for eons (which the parents don't know or understand either). It confuses them and not only risks loosing them to the dark side, but breed resentment toward the parents for teaching them something they now think is untrue. 

Additionally, the significant lack of religious education breeds stupid positions and beliefs that are not scriptural yet are propagated from person to person and generation to generation. Many of you catalog tales of going to aunt Jane's house and hearing her spout of nonsense about Gays and God's judgement (for an example). Sometimes Christians are their own worse enemies. I blame both the people and the church for not policing the stupid.

Stop indoctrinating them, and the church will be done.

On some level, people must know this.

(July 12, 2016 at 3:25 pm)robvalue Wrote: Stop indoctrinating them, and the church will be done.

On some level, people must know this.

That is my point. We need to stop indoctrinating the children and the church will be stronger and bigger than ever. 

Indoctrinating defined as: teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

(July 12, 2016 at 3:25 pm)robvalue Wrote: Stop indoctrinating them, and the church will be done.

On some level, people must know this.

the irony in that statement.. I hope you live long enough to see that no matter what you believe lest you discover it for yourself, there will ultimately be a large measure of indoctrination supporting your beliefs.

(July 12, 2016 at 3:23 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(July 12, 2016 at 3:00 pm)Expired Wrote: Bubble being the key word in this statement.

I have no problem characterizing it like that because it is true. It is a disservice to our children to teach them one thing and then not be able to defend it against common arguments that have had answers for eons (which the parents don't know or understand either). It confuses them and not only risks loosing them to the dark side, but breed resentment toward the parents for teaching them something they now think is untrue. 

Additionally, the significant lack of religious education breeds stupid positions and beliefs that are not scriptural yet are propagated from person to person and generation to generation. Many of you catalog tales of going to aunt Jane's house and hearing her spout of nonsense about Gays and God's judgement (for an example). Sometimes Christians are their own worse enemies. I blame both the people and the church for not policing the stupid.

As opposed to stupid positions and beliefs that are scriptural? religious literature should be looked at in the same way as Greek or Norse mythology, and not to be relayed as truth in any way shape or form, I do not want my children closing their eyes, putting their little hands together, and thanking jesus for the sandwiches that I have shopped for, prepared, and packaged for them, I don't want them thanking him everyday for their existence. This shit should not be forced on children as truth.

(July 12, 2016 at 4:28 pm)Drich Wrote:

(July 12, 2016 at 3:25 pm)robvalue Wrote: Stop indoctrinating them, and the church will be done.

On some level, people must know this.

the irony in that statement.. I hope you live long enough to see that no matter what you believe lest you discover it for yourself, there will ultimately be a large measure of indoctrination supporting your beliefs.

Non belief requires no indoctrination.

(July 12, 2016 at 4:39 pm)Expired Wrote:

(July 12, 2016 at 3:23 pm)SteveII Wrote: I have no problem characterizing it like that because it is true. It is a disservice to our children to teach them one thing and then not be able to defend it against common arguments that have had answers for eons (which the parents don't know or understand either). It confuses them and not only risks loosing them to the dark side, but breed resentment toward the parents for teaching them something they now think is untrue. 

Additionally, the significant lack of religious education breeds stupid positions and beliefs that are not scriptural yet are propagated from person to person and generation to generation. Many of you catalog tales of going to aunt Jane's house and hearing her spout of nonsense about Gays and God's judgement (for an example). Sometimes Christians are their own worse enemies. I blame both the people and the church for not policing the stupid.

As opposed to stupid positions and beliefs that are scriptural? religious literature should be looked at in the same way as Greek or Norse mythology, and not to be relayed as truth in any way shape or form, I do not want my children closing their eyes, putting their little hands together, and thanking jesus for the sandwiches that I have shopped for, prepared, and packaged for them, I don't want them thanking him everyday for their existence. This shit should not be forced on children as truth.

That is your opinion of the truth and you can teach your children that. Since I think something else is true, I teach my children something else.

(July 12, 2016 at 5:14 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(July 12, 2016 at 4:39 pm)Expired Wrote: As opposed to stupid positions and beliefs that are scriptural? religious literature should be looked at in the same way as Greek or Norse mythology, and not to be relayed as truth in any way shape or form, I do not want my children closing their eyes, putting their little hands together, and thanking jesus for the sandwiches that I have shopped for, prepared, and packaged for them, I don't want them thanking him everyday for their existence. This shit should not be forced on children as truth.

That is your opinion of the truth and you can teach your children that. Since I think something else is true, I teach my children something else.

What else can you do, really?  If all religionists would accept their children's adult beliefs as being their own, believers would be better off. If religious institutions would work harder to earn children's respect rather than just insist on it, that would also help.