Another good video Rob, I didn't find it mental or angry. Good points made on testing reality and what qualifies as supernatural. I would define supernatural as something that is in contradiction with natural laws, not just as we perceive them at the moment and lack a better understanding. If Christ rose from death after 3 days, that would qualify as my definition of supernatural for example.

I do find disturbing the number of stuffed animals seen in the background.!

Thank you

How do you know what's breaking natural law? Where can we look up natural law? All we have is models; this is the equivocation. If it's just breaking our models, that doesn't tell us anything except our models aren't accurate.

If we understand next year how he rose from the dead, does that mean it was natural all along?

Yeah... I'm kinda a softy

To clarify: to say something is supernatural, by your definition, is to claim it will never be explained.

How is this anything other than speculation?

Quote:It is very hard to leave aside the "next life".

No, it isn't.  All you need to do is get your ego under control and realize that when you are dead you are dead and the universe can survive without you.

(July 20, 2016 at 11:55 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:It is very hard to leave aside the "next life".

No, it isn't.  All you need to do is get your ego under control and realize that when you are dead you are dead and the universe can survive without you.

No, No, NO!!! The Universe NEEDS me! I can't go out like a light.

(July 20, 2016 at 9:52 am)Gawdzilla Wrote: The Bible says something about "if you pray sincerely your prayer will be answered" or some such. So, why has no "good and true Christian" ever prayed for an end to war, hunger, disease, or atheism?

God gives no guarantee to answer ALL prayers regardless of content. Prayers by thieves for an easy heist or by murderers to avoid discovery will most likely not be answered. Only prayers in conformance with His will are answered as when Jesus taught us to pray, "...Thy will be done...". Or not. This is not to suggest theological tangles don't remain about the need for and/or the efficacy of prayer. For example, if the lack of prayer doesn't thwart His will then what is the point? IMHO prayer is more of an opportunity for believers to participate in the Lord's purposes. The assumption of the OP seems to be that Christians have not prayed for evils to cease, which is of course obviously false. Why such evils do not cease is another issue entirely.

(July 20, 2016 at 11:51 am)robvalue Wrote: To clarify: to say something is supernatural, by your definition, is to claim it will never be explained. [with by natural causes]

-my edit-

Exactly right. It is by definition excluded. The question is whether all phenomena can be explained by mechanistic natural processes that are reducible to small scale primitives. Even if something isn't technically supernatural, I think skeptics never seem to consider irreducible natural process that could exist at very high scales, some that may be deduced from conditions within the visible universe even if not directly observable within it.

If a cause, supernatural or otherwise, has any effect on the natural world at all, that effect has to be detectable by definition. That puts it squarely in the purview of science. Otherwise what justification can you possibly have for suspecting it's even there?

From our point of view, supernatural cause A is identical to supernatural cause B, which is identical to no cause at all. All we see is the effect.

If we can tell the difference, they are science-able. Can't have it both ways.

Rob, lets not delve into a deep debate on this, but in short, what would you say set the universe in motion? The first cause I believe it is called?