(September 1, 2016 at 12:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I always thought that the reason you join was to -protect- the flag burners of the world from assholes who hate them for their freedom. 

I swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, even the parts I didn't really like.

I'm another vet that supports Kaepernick's protest. In fact, I think the playing of the national anthem before sporting events is a meaningless, nationalistic and tired tradition that should be abandoned immediately. That goes for 'God Bless America' in the ballparks that still play it during the seventh inning stretch.

I don't protest it, I just don't think people should be barred from protesting.

(September 1, 2016 at 2:34 pm)Cato Wrote: I'm another vet that supports Kaepernick's protest. In fact, I think the playing of the national anthem before sporting events is a meaningless, nationalistic and tired tradition that should be abandoned immediately. That goes for 'God Bless America' in the ballparks that still play it during the seventh inning stretch.

Yup. Patriotism is easy when it's two minutes at the head of a ball-game, a bit rougher when it's your ass on the line ... and we ain't talkin' line of scrimmage.

(September 1, 2016 at 2:34 pm)Cato Wrote: I'm another vet that supports Kaepernick's protest. In fact, I think the playing of the national anthem before sporting events is a meaningless, nationalistic and tired tradition that should be abandoned immediately. That goes for 'God Bless America' in the ballparks that still play it during the seventh inning stretch.

Oddly, Stephen Colbert went looking to exactly where that tradition began.  Like the pledge of allegiance with its 'under god' horseshit, it is not as old as you might think.

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/09/colbert...marketing/

See the video.

(September 1, 2016 at 4:00 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(September 1, 2016 at 2:34 pm)Cato Wrote: I'm another vet that supports Kaepernick's protest. In fact, I think the playing of the national anthem before sporting events is a meaningless, nationalistic and tired tradition that should be abandoned immediately. That goes for 'God Bless America' in the ballparks that still play it during the seventh inning stretch.

Oddly, Stephen Colbert went looking to exactly where that tradition began.  Like the pledge of allegiance with its 'under god' horseshit, it is not as old as you might think.

https://www.rawstory.com/2016/09/colbert...marketing/

See the video.

What, you mean to say that this uber nationalism is all just (relatively) recently manufactured propaganda and marketing?

Say it ain't so.

I wasn't aware of this story until now. I find myself more than a little stunned at the amount of vitriol directed at a footballer who sat down during his national anthem. Perhaps those people frothing at the crotch over this should take note of a quote by another American:


'If there is any principle of the Constitution that more imperatively calls for attachment than any other, it is the principle of free thought—not free thought for those who agree with us but freedom for the thought that we hate.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Boru

(September 1, 2016 at 4:00 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Oddly, Stephen Colbert went looking to exactly where that tradition began.  Like the pledge of allegiance with its 'under god' horseshit, it is not as old as you might think.

ESPN recently ran an article flushing out the 1918 World Series also. The song at the time was 'generally' popular, not to mention the impact of WWI on the sentiments of the general populous. I think the national anthem has its place and in certain circumstances can actually have a positive effect on solidarity in times of collective grief; e.g., post 9/11. Part of my disdain for its playing before every spectator sport is that it cheapens its meaning.

When I served, most people wouldn't be caught dead outside during colors to avoid standing at attention and saluting the flag for a couple moments. I honestly had no problem with it as it always served as a gentle reminder of the more important part of my then existence and sense of purpose outside the drudgery of the actual work involved.

The last bit here wasn't a reply to Min, but just providing some additional background. I am proud to be American, at least for the collective output worthy of praise, but my form of patriotism also makes me extremely critical because we could collectively do so much better. I still stand at attention when the anthem is played or the flag passes during a parade, but think the ubiquitous use of the anthem makes it routine and meaningless.

Perhaps another anecdote that gives additional understanding. This summer we took our six year old grandson to Sea World. During one of the shows they made a deal about veterans and asked us to stand up to be recognized for our service. I personally cringe at this type of display and don't participate more than clapping to show my appreciation for others that served. My wife understands my thoughts on the matter and no longer bothers me even though she disagrees. As everybody stood to get the obligatory round of applause my grandson loudly and excitedly states "Grandpa, you were in the Navy! You need to stand up!". Busted. My wife had a field day with that one.

(August 31, 2016 at 11:30 pm)Chad32 Wrote: It is a little odd to see people get riled up over protesting regarding the flag or national anthem, when one of the first things those things are supposed to stand for is the freedom to protest.

From my perspective using national symbols as a means of protest is the clumsy use of a blunt instrument. A national symbol represents the nation as a whole, i.e. everything for which it stands. Even if someone has a legitimate gripe with a specific policy issue it doesn't make sense to disrespect the symbol that also stands for more important and fundamental things. Does it really make sense to express yourself by reviling the very symbol of free expression?

(September 1, 2016 at 6:38 pm)ChadWooters Wrote:

(August 31, 2016 at 11:30 pm)Chad32 Wrote: It is a little odd to see people get riled up over protesting regarding the flag or national anthem, when one of the first things those things are supposed to stand for is the freedom to protest.

From my perspective using national symbols as a means of protest is the clumsy use of a blunt instrument. A national symbol represents the nation as a whole, i.e. everything for which it stands. Even if someone has a legitimate gripe with a specific policy issue it doesn't make sense to disrespect the symbol that also stands for more important and fundamental things. Does it really make sense to express yourself by reviling the very symbol of free expression?

I guess it depends on your priorities.