(September 11, 2016 at 7:27 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 11, 2016 at 7:14 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: Wrong. All beliefs are man made, if you study them at all they closely reflect the prejudices, worries and structures of the societies which beget them.

I wonder if you noticed the irony of you using manmade beliefs to argue that beliefs are not manmade?

I wonder if you noticed the context and usage of the word in the culture and language it came from at the time of it's use?

I'm amazing at your continued belief in your assertion in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary!  Very un-atheist of you...  :dodgy:


To be clear: it does not matter here if the is or isn't a God, the context of repeated usage of the word in the language/time of it's origin definitively state over and over that faith is not a belief made by man.

It does not matter that Superman is a made up character, he's allergic to kryptonite, not Samsonite.....it falls from the sky, it's not made in a factory.  Get it???


But you can make it mean butterfly breaths and rainbow sharts if you really want to.

Yes I did. Faith was used by a man to describe belief in a manmade religion. To convince me that faith was ever about belief in something that wasn't manmade, you'll have to show me a religion that isn't (or wasn't as the case may be) man made.

Just because some people believe their religion isn't manmade, this misapprehension doesn't allow you to infer that their religion isn't manmade.

(September 11, 2016 at 4:30 am)Arkilogue Wrote: What does it matter what a person believes if the practice of it produces no harm and even some benefits?

But can a religion survive if none of its practitioners inflict any harm? I imagine that if all Christians and Muslims at this moment decided that from here on out they would practice their faith in a truly benign way, which is to say, they would no longer give preferential treatment to the ancient stories to the point that all other knowledge is, by definition, secondary, and, where conflict appears to arise, distorted, incorrect, etc.; if they abandoned the presumption that each word in their holy texts is infallibly true; if they demanded reason and evidence for the claims made in their books as they do for any other proposition of a similar nature, and remained opened to revising their opinions where facts or probabilities suggested otherwise; if they instilled within their children a curiosity to hear opposing viewpoints where there are credible arguments to be made; in a word, if they became less dogmatic, could they even call themselves Christians or Muslims in such a way that is consistent with the spirit and letter of the Pentateuch/Gospel/Koran? I'm doubtful.

(September 11, 2016 at 8:18 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: Yes I did. Faith was used by a man to describe belief in a manmade religion. To convince me that faith was ever about belief in something that wasn't manmade, you'll have to show me a religion that isn't (or wasn't as the case may be) man made.

Just because some people believe their religion isn't manmade, this misapprehension doesn't allow you to infer that their religion isn't manmade.

How many time must it be shown to you in their source documents (the bible) that faith as referred to in that time was not man made belief? It does not matter what you believe about it, how they used it and referred to it won't change.

Just because you are hung up in your beliefs about it, doesn't change history one iota.

And here I am trying to persuade an atheist that his beliefs are incorrect.....what a world.

What are an atheist's beliefs?

(September 11, 2016 at 1:18 pm)Mudhammam Wrote:

(September 11, 2016 at 4:30 am)Arkilogue Wrote: What does it matter what a person believes if the practice of it produces no harm and even some benefits?

But can a religion survive if none of its practitioners inflict any harm?  I imagine that if all Christians and Muslims at this moment decided that from here on out they would practice their faith in a truly benign way, which is to say, they would no longer give preferential treatment to the ancient stories to the point that all other knowledge is, by definition, secondary, and, where conflict appears to arise, distorted, incorrect, etc.; if they abandoned the presumption that each word in their holy texts is infallibly true; if they demanded reason and evidence for the claims made in their books as they do for any other proposition of a similar nature, and remained opened to revising their opinions where facts or probabilities suggested otherwise; if they instilled within their children a curiosity to hear opposing viewpoints where there are credible arguments to be made; in a word, if they became less dogmatic, could they even call themselves Christians or Muslims in such a way that is consistent with the spirit and letter of the Pentateuch/Gospel/Koran?  I'm doubtful.

The Hare Krishnas seem to do just fine.

What you are talking about are forms of religion and they have risen and fallen over time as the spiritual needs of the people change. As children, all we needed was a stepping stool to reach what we wanted on the counter....now as an adult the 2nd story roof needs patching and I need a 28 ft extension ladder.

We have matured as a species (some what) and our needs are greater than they were, the old forms no longer meet many peoples needs. We need more input because we have grown. And what doesn't grow with us will burst as is happening now.

But there are more virulent forms of religion like Islam which rewards martyrdom and the killing of others with a paradise filled with sensual pleasures. Christianity simply can't compete and the Hare Krishna's would flee in a blur of orange and tambourine jangles.

Most of the time in history, a new religion supplants the former ones.

(September 11, 2016 at 4:22 pm)Stimbo Wrote: What are an atheist's beliefs?

Anything but .. you know .. that which would make one other than an atheist.  

Indeed. I may have many beliefs:





but which if any can be said to be be atheist's beliefs?

(September 11, 2016 at 4:22 pm)Stimbo Wrote: What are an atheist's beliefs?

I was referring to his belief that "faith" mean's human belief and while certainly it is used that way today, the bible clearly states in many places it is not made by man, not belief, it is a gift of God.

It does not matter if there is or isn't a God in this instance, the syntax and context is crystal clear on it's ancient usage and meaning.

Which is why I use the Superman example, the lore is crystal clear: He is weakened by kryptonite, not samsonite.

Is that an atheist's belief, or the belief you are ascribing to an atheist? Please be clear on this.

(September 11, 2016 at 4:58 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Is that an atheist's belief, or the belief you are ascribing to an atheist? Please be clear on this.

It's a belief about faith, held by a self proclaimed atheist. I don't feel like it matters if any other atheists share this belief.


I'll keep this side of the hair, you can keep that one