(September 11, 2016 at 2:54 am)Maelstrom Wrote: To be honest, I think you should apologize to me for having to read the atrocity you presented as a counter argument.

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(September 11, 2016 at 2:45 am)robvalue Wrote: To address the OP again:

I'm not aware of any benefit of religion that can't be achieved as well as, if not better, by other means.

I view it as the equivalent of being drunk (I know this isn't an original thought). Sure. I could cope with life better too if I gave in to the bottle. Is it a good idea? No.

Is the meditation of Buddhism like "getting drunk"?

I see many here with the impression that "religion" is a set of beliefs with no practice, and perhaps that is what it has degenerated down to and lost it's meanings.

Just like the degeneration of the meaning of the word faith.

(September 11, 2016 at 2:52 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 11, 2016 at 2:45 am)robvalue Wrote: To address the OP again:

I'm not aware of any benefit of religion that can't be achieved as well as, if not better, by other means.

I view it as the equivalent of being drunk (I know this isn't an original thought). Sure. I could cope with life better too if I gave in to the bottle. Is it a good idea? No.

Peace with death and loss of loved ones?

I have achieved peace perfectly well. I remember reading that ideas about loved ones still being somehow alive after death can actually stifle the grieving process.

Even if religion could help here, which it wouldn't, it would still be the equivalent of getting drunk to drown my problems.

(September 11, 2016 at 3:53 am)robvalue Wrote:

(September 11, 2016 at 2:52 am)Arkilogue Wrote: Peace with death and loss of loved ones?

I have achieved peace perfectly well. I remember reading that ideas about loved ones still being somehow alive after death can actually stifle the grieving process.

Even if religion could help here, which it wouldn't, it would still be the equivalent of getting drunk to drown my problems.

Interesting. I was about to say "I wonder if the same would be reported to those who talk to the departed at their grave stone." but I remembered Christians are forbidden to have any kind of contact with "the dead" as well as the bible saying "the dead know nothing"

It all depends how you use alcohol, you can get drunk, or clean wounds and sterilize tools.
So it is with most things, it's benefit or detriment is in how you use it.

Well I wouldn't presume to tell others how they are feeling. I'm saying that idea that you can't achieve peace, without resorting to woo, is flawed.

(September 11, 2016 at 4:18 am)robvalue Wrote: Well I wouldn't presume to tell others how they are feeling. I'm saying that idea that you can't achieve peace, without resorting to woo, is flawed.

One man's woo...



Protects another man's sandwich.



Could have used a ziploc bag just the same...



What does it matter what a person believes if the practice of it produces no harm and even some benefits?

(September 10, 2016 at 4:55 pm)Arkilogue Wrote: I wonder when the word "faith" came to mean man made belief? Because it's not defined that way in the bible...and in the loss of meaning, it has lost it's function.

Faith always was the word for man made beliefs. Man created god after all. Faith applied to worship of Thor, turns out he's man made, faith applied to worship of Aphrodite/Venus, turns out she's man made, faith apllys to worship of yhwh, any rading of the bible will show that he's created from a melding of tribal Canaanite and Mesopotamian mythologies.

(September 11, 2016 at 4:30 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 11, 2016 at 4:18 am)robvalue Wrote: Well I wouldn't presume to tell others how they are feeling. I'm saying that idea that you can't achieve peace, without resorting to woo, is flawed.

One man's woo...



Protects another man's sandwich.



Could have used a ziploc bag just the same...



What does it matter what a person believes if the practice of it produces no harm and even some benefits?

This is a separate question entirely. Are you conceding the original point?

(September 11, 2016 at 6:18 am)Tazzycorn Wrote:

(September 10, 2016 at 4:55 pm)Arkilogue Wrote: I wonder when the word "faith" came to mean man made belief? Because it's not defined that way in the bible...and in the loss of meaning, it has lost it's function.

Faith always was the word for man made beliefs. Man created god after all. Faith applied to worship of Thor, turns out he's man made, faith applied to worship of Aphrodite/Venus, turns out she's man made, faith apllys to worship of yhwh, any rading of the bible will show that he's created from a melding of tribal Canaanite and Mesopotamian mythologies.

I wonder how it will hold up to history? http://biblehub.com/greek/4102.htm

4102 pístis (from 3982/peithô, "persuade, be persuaded") – properly, persuasion (be persuaded, come to trust); faith.

Faith (4102/pistis) is always a gift from God, and never something that can be produced by people. In short, 4102/pistis ("faith") for the believer is "God's divine persuasion" – and therefore distinct from human belief (confidence), yet involving it. The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

[4102 (pistis) in secular antiquity referred to a guarantee (warranty). In Scripture, faith is God's warranty, certifying that the revelation He inbirthed will come to pass (His way).

Faith (4102/pistis) is also used collectively – of all the times God has revealed (given the persuasion of) His will, which includes the full revelation of Scripture (Jude 3). Indeed, God the Lord guarantees that all of this revelation will come to pass! Compare Mt 5:18 with 2 Tim 3:16.]

1. The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

Faith (4102/pistis) is always received from God, and never generated by us.

Ro 12:3: "For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith (4102/pistis)" (NASU).

Eph 2:8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith (4102/pistis); and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (NASU).

Gal 5:22,23: "22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,

patience, kindness, goodness, faith (4102/pistis), 23gentleness,

self-control; against such things there is no law."

2 Thes 1:11: "To this end (glorification) – indeed each time we pray about (peri) you for the purpose (hin) of our God counting you worthy of the call – even that He may fulfill (His) every good-pleasure that comes from (His) goodness and work of faith, in (His) ability."

Reflection: Faith is only (exclusively) given to the redeemed. It is not a virtue that can be worked up by human effort.

2. Faith (4102/pistis) enables the believer to know God's preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin; see 2307/thelçma). Accordingly, faith (4102/pistis) and "God's preferred-will (2307/thelçma)" are directly connected in Scripture.

Heb 10:36,38: "36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will (2307/thelçma) of God, you may receive what was promised" (NASU).

" BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH(4102/pistis); AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM" (NASU).

1 Jn 5:4: "For whatever is born of God conquers the world;

and this is the conquest that has conquered the world – our faith

(4102/pistis)."

3. In sum, faith (4102/pistis) is a persuasion from God that we receive as He grants impulse ("divine spark"; cf. the Heb hiphil form of believe, *mn, in a later discussion). Faith is always the work of God and involves hearing His voice – whereby the believer lays hold of His preferred-will (cf. J. Calvin).

(September 11, 2016 at 6:33 am)Arkilogue Wrote:

(September 11, 2016 at 6:18 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: Faith always was the word for man made beliefs. Man created god after all. Faith applied to worship of Thor, turns out he's man made, faith applied to worship of Aphrodite/Venus, turns out she's man made, faith apllys to worship of yhwh, any rading of the bible will show that he's created from a melding of tribal Canaanite and Mesopotamian mythologies.

Wrong. All beliefs are man made, if you study them at all they closely reflect the prejudices, worries and structures of the societies which beget them.

I wonder if you noticed the irony of you using manmade beliefs to argue that beliefs are not manmade?

(September 11, 2016 at 7:14 am)Tazzycorn Wrote: Wrong. All beliefs are man made, if you study them at all they closely reflect the prejudices, worries and structures of the societies which beget them.

I wonder if you noticed the irony of you using manmade beliefs to argue that beliefs are not manmade?

I wonder if you noticed the context and usage of the word in the culture and language it came from at the time of it's use?

I'm amazing at your continued belief in your assertion in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary! Very un-atheist of you...


To be clear: it does not matter here if the is or isn't a God, the context of repeated usage of the word in the language/time of it's origin definitively state over and over that faith is not a belief made by man.

It does not matter that Superman is a made up character, he's allergic to kryptonite, not Samsonite.....it falls from the sky, it's not made in a factory. Get it???


But you can make it mean butterfly breaths and rainbow sharts if you really want to.