(September 15, 2016 at 9:12 am)Mudhammam Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 9:07 am)Arkilogue Wrote: I don't "believe" in the bible nor do I need to. I have found what I've needed and moved well beyond it.

That's good.  For you.  But irrelevant to the claim that you made about Christianity, especially the variety first preached by St. Paul, as well as the author of Hebrews, and its (early) marriage to blind faith.

Well the good thing is, I don't have to take you word on blind faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of thing hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

And the from the founders alleged mouth:
John 10:37 If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.
38 But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”…

That should thoroughly put to rest this matter.

(September 15, 2016 at 9:24 am)Arkilogue Wrote: Well the good thing is, I don't have to take you word on blind faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of thing hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

And the from the founders alleged mouth:
John 10:37 If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.
38 But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”…

That should thoroughly put to rest this matter.

Quote:We have now among us a sister whose lot it has been to be favoured with sundry gifts of revelation, which she experiences in the Spirit by ecstatic vision amidst the sacred rites of the Lord's day in the church: she converses with angels, and sometimes even with the Lord; she both sees and hears mysterious communications; some men's hearts she understands, and to them who are in need she distributes remedies. Whether it be in the reading of Scriptures, or in the chanting of psalms, or in the preaching of sermons, or in the offering up of prayers, in all these religious services matter and opportunity are afforded to her of seeing visions. It may possibly have happened to us, while this sister of ours was rapt in the Spirit, that we had discoursed in some ineffable way about the soul. After the people are dismissed at the conclusion of the sacred services, she is in the regular habit of reporting to us whatever things she may have seen in vision (for all her communications are examined with the most scrupulous care, in order that their truth may be probed). Amongst other things, says she, there has been shown to me a soul in bodily shape, and a spirit has been in the habit of appearing to me; not, however, a void and empty illusion, but such as would offer itself to be even grasped by the hand, soft and transparent and of an etherial colour, and in form resembling that of a human being in every respect. This was her vision, and for her witness there was God; and the apostle most assuredly foretold that there were to be spiritual gifts in the church. Now, can you refuse to believe this, even if indubitable evidence on every point is forthcoming for your conviction?

- Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul

Indeed, this conversation has made it sufficiently clear where you're coming from.

(September 15, 2016 at 9:52 am)Mudhammam Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 9:24 am)Arkilogue Wrote: Well the good thing is, I don't have to take you word on blind faith.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of thing hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

And the from the founders alleged mouth:
John 10:37 If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.
38 But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”…

That should thoroughly put to rest this matter.

Quote:We have now among us a sister whose lot it has been to be favoured with sundry gifts of revelation, which she experiences in the Spirit by ecstatic vision amidst the sacred rites of the Lord's day in the church: she converses with angels, and sometimes even with the Lord; she both sees and hears mysterious communications; some men's hearts she understands, and to them who are in need she distributes remedies. Whether it be in the reading of Scriptures, or in the chanting of psalms, or in the preaching of sermons, or in the offering up of prayers, in all these religious services matter and opportunity are afforded to her of seeing visions. It may possibly have happened to us, while this sister of ours was rapt in the Spirit, that we had discoursed in some ineffable way about the soul. After the people are dismissed at the conclusion of the sacred services, she is in the regular habit of reporting to us whatever things she may have seen in vision (for all her communications are examined with the most scrupulous care, in order that their truth may be probed). Amongst other things, says she, there has been shown to me a soul in bodily shape, and a spirit has been in the habit of appearing to me; not, however, a void and empty illusion, but such as would offer itself to be even grasped by the hand, soft and transparent and of an etherial colour, and in form resembling that of a human being in every respect. This was her vision, and for her witness there was God; and the apostle most assuredly foretold that there were to be spiritual gifts in the church. Now, can you refuse to believe this, even if indubitable evidence on every point is forthcoming for your conviction?

- Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul

Indeed, this conversation has made it sufficiently clear where you're coming from.

If she preformed external works/miracles I would believe her. But I don't need it. If not, I'd simply listen to what she had to say and make my own decisions. More impressive if she did have a spiritual gift where she could tell me things about myself and inner life that neither she nor anyone else could possibly know. That can't be faked so easily. She'd have to put a chip in my brain without me knowing.

Nice anecdotal and irrelevant segway btw..

I'm coming from the original meaning and function of faith, from the founding documents and the sayings of the founder, not personal opinion, that's belief. .

Goodnight!

(September 15, 2016 at 10:42 am)Arkilogue Wrote: If she preformed external works/miracles I would believe her. But I don't need it. If not, I'd simply listen to what she had to say and make my own decisions. More impressive if she did have a spiritual gift where she could tell me things about myself and inner life that neither she nor anyone else could possibly know.  That can't be faked so easily. She'd have to put a chip in my brain without me knowing.

Nice anecdotal and irrelevant segway btw..

I'm coming from the original meaning and function of faith, from the founding documents and the sayings of the founder, not personal opinion, that's belief. .

Goodnight!

The founding documents... LOL. Because to be commanded to believe in the incredible tales that were spun in the context of recent events (under the threat of punishment, mind you), or on account of some private experience that an individual conveyed in the language of their favored mythology, tradition, or any other non-falsifiable metaphysical scheme, is not precisely what it means to be asked to give assent on blind faith.

That's rich.

(September 15, 2016 at 10:42 am)Arkilogue Wrote: I'm coming from the original meaning and function of faith, from the founding documents and the sayings of the founder, not personal opinion, that's belief. .

And your argument is crap. It's an interpretation, nothing more. You don't know what ancient Jews meant simply by performing a word study.

(September 15, 2016 at 10:42 am)Arkilogue Wrote: Nice anecdotal and irrelevant segway btw..

* Segue.

Segway:

Gee thanks for making a totally unreadable thread, Arkilogue. I have no clue what you are all about. It's just incoherent gibberish!

(September 15, 2016 at 10:42 am)Arkilogue Wrote: More impressive if she did have a spiritual gift where she could tell me things about myself and inner life that neither she nor anyone else could possibly know.  That can't be faked so easily. She'd have to put a chip in my brain without me knowing.

This IS easily faked, and all the time, by people with even a slight education in body language.

(September 15, 2016 at 10:58 am)Mudhammam Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 10:42 am)Arkilogue Wrote: If she preformed external works/miracles I would believe her. But I don't need it. If not, I'd simply listen to what she had to say and make my own decisions. More impressive if she did have a spiritual gift where she could tell me things about myself and inner life that neither she nor anyone else could possibly know.  That can't be faked so easily. She'd have to put a chip in my brain without me knowing.

Nice anecdotal and irrelevant segway btw..

I'm coming from the original meaning and function of faith, from the founding documents and the sayings of the founder, not personal opinion, that's belief. .

Goodnight!

The founding documents... LOL. Because to be commanded to believe in the incredible tales that were spun in the context of recent events (under the threat of punishment, mind you), or on account of some private experience that an individual conveyed in the language of their favored mythology, tradition, or any other non-falsifiable metaphysical scheme, is not precisely what it means to be asked to give assent on blind faith.

That's rich.  

Hey, make up what ever definition you like. Write up a Newspeak article.

(September 15, 2016 at 11:05 am)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(September 15, 2016 at 10:42 am)Arkilogue Wrote: I'm coming from the original meaning and function of faith, from the founding documents and the sayings of the founder, not personal opinion, that's belief. .

And your argument is crap.  It's an interpretation, nothing more.  You don't know what ancient Jews meant simply by performing a word study.

We were talking about the founder of Christianity: John 10:37 If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me.

Would you like to discuss his views on the Judaism of the time?