(May 27, 2011 at 3:55 am)Pope Alfred Wrote: Thanks, Minimalist, that was my intention. When a declared Christian goes diametrically against a clear and unambiguous statement attributed to Jesus, is that not a religious contradiction? I intended it to illustrate my long-held opinion that few Christians have a clear idea of what they believe.
Mind you, I was indeed off-topic in that we were asked for our favourite contradictions.

Tell me Pope why you believe that the act of attaining salvation, which is based on the willingness of a person rich or poor, is the same as God welcoming one into His kingdom. The passage you quoted has to do with a persons willingness, not the act of God wecoming one into the kingdom. God will never turn away anyone who desires salvation not matter what his/her financial situation. I do know what I believe and what scripture says about belief. Now go and find me a passage that says that God does not welcome the rich into His kingdom. You should however remember this that God made Abraham and Job extremely wealth and they both are in His kingdom and those are just two of many.

How do you know the passage refers to a rich man's willingness, and not to God's rules of entry? It sounds more like the latter to me. And if salvation is not the same thing as being welcomed into the kingdom, then what the devil is it, for chrissake?
Of course we see here another religious contradiction: most Christians will accept the Bible as the word of god - in some sense - but most of the important communication is ambiguous, contradictory or downright confusing. The proof of this is the way different Christians draw radically different messages from the same passages. Also, the fact that most Christians are so hazy about the vital and basic doctrines. We went over that a year or two ago and I don't want to hijack this thread with it now, but start another thread if you like.

Minimalist Wrote:When the plain text fucks you up you invent alternate scenarios. Your kind always does that.

Precisely!

(May 27, 2011 at 9:50 am)Doubting Thomas Wrote: Ah, but don't you see? There's no contradiction, the verses are just expanding on each other. Or at least this is what Christians claim.

It's like if I wrote a sentence saying, "Bob, Sue, and Fred went to the store." And then later I wrote it again saying, "Bob, Mary, John, and Joe went to the store" and claiming that they're not contradictory because actually, Bob, Sue, Fred, Mary, John, and Joe all went to the store. If they're not contradictory, then why not have the same account in both passages of who exactly it was who went? It's just another dishonest tactic used to try to disprove any contradictions in the bible.

I completely agree with you DT the theists want this bs to be so true so bad that they go to extremes to try to make it so. One of their other favorite tactics is when a story makes absolutely no sense and can't be possibly real like the flood story they then say it is an allegory and not meant to be taken literally. It's pathetic that people are willing to suspend their brains to uphold senseless beliefs and superstitions.

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(May 26, 2011 at 1:42 pm)Pope Alfred Wrote:

Godschild Wrote:God welcomes the poor and rich into the church, in his eyes they are equal.

Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Pope I don't think that this text qualifies as a contradiction I actually agree with GC on this one somewhat. All this text is saying that it is more difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than the average Joe. Being rich poses a lot of challenges to a believer that are not common to a man or woman of average means.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, 'In truth I tell you, it is hard for someone rich to enter the kingdom of Heaven.24 Yes, I tell you again, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for someone rich to enter the kingdom of Heaven.' (NJB)

As you can see the fictional Jesus was made to say that it was hard but that does not mean it is impossible. In the previous verses Jesus was being questioned by a rich man and when he was given the choice to sell all his possessions and give the money to the poor and follow Jesus he was saddened because he was not willing to part with his wealth.

Actually, it doesn't matter. "Jesus" stole the idea from Plato anyway who wrote, some 3 centuries before the alleged godboy:

Quote:but it is impossible for them to be at once both good and excessively rich—rich at least as most men count riches

(May 27, 2011 at 2:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Actually, it doesn't matter. "Jesus" stole the idea from Plato anyway who wrote, some 3 centuries before the alleged godboy:

Quote:but it is impossible for them to be at once both good and excessively rich—rich at least as most men count riches

Jesus knew this truth before the beginning of time, just a little bit before Plato don't you think.

(May 27, 2011 at 2:41 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(May 27, 2011 at 2:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Actually, it doesn't matter. "Jesus" stole the idea from Plato anyway who wrote, some 3 centuries before the alleged godboy:

Quote:but it is impossible for them to be at once both good and excessively rich—rich at least as most men count riches

Jesus knew this truth before the beginning of time, just a little bit before Plato don't you think.

What a breathtakingly absurd thing to say!

(May 27, 2011 at 11:47 am)Pope Alfred Wrote: How do you know the passage refers to a rich man's willingness, and not to God's rules of entry? It sounds more like the latter to me. And if salvation is not the same thing as being welcomed into the kingdom, then what the devil is it, for chrissake?
Of course we see here another religious contradiction: most Christians will accept the Bible as the word of god - in some sense - but most of the important communication is ambiguous, contradictory or downright confusing. The proof of this is the way different Christians draw radically different messages from the same passages. Also, the fact that most Christians are so hazy about the vital and basic doctrines. We went over that a year or two ago and I don't want to hijack this thread with it now, but start another thread if you like.

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Minimalist Wrote:When the plain text fucks you up you invent alternate scenarios. Your kind always does that.

Precisely!

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Simple to understand when one doesn't look for what's not there.

(May 27, 2011 at 2:41 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(May 27, 2011 at 2:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Actually, it doesn't matter. "Jesus" stole the idea from Plato anyway who wrote, some 3 centuries before the alleged godboy:

Quote:but it is impossible for them to be at once both good and excessively rich—rich at least as most men count riches

Jesus knew this truth before the beginning of time, just a little bit before Plato don't you think.

Every time I think you have reached rock bottom you dig a little deeper. Really, how do you get through the day with a mind that defective?

(May 27, 2011 at 2:43 pm)Darwinian Wrote:

(May 27, 2011 at 2:41 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(May 27, 2011 at 2:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Actually, it doesn't matter. "Jesus" stole the idea from Plato anyway who wrote, some 3 centuries before the alleged godboy:

Quote:but it is impossible for them to be at once both good and excessively rich—rich at least as most men count riches

Jesus knew this truth before the beginning of time, just a little bit before Plato don't you think.

What a breathtakingly absurd thing to say!

When did the truth become absurd, I bet when it doesn't agree with your truth.

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(May 27, 2011 at 2:48 pm)Minimalist Wrote:

(May 27, 2011 at 2:41 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(May 27, 2011 at 2:12 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Actually, it doesn't matter. "Jesus" stole the idea from Plato anyway who wrote, some 3 centuries before the alleged godboy:

Quote:but it is impossible for them to be at once both good and excessively rich—rich at least as most men count riches

Jesus knew this truth before the beginning of time, just a little bit before Plato don't you think.

Every time I think you have reached rock bottom you dig a little deeper. Really, how do you get through the day with a mind that defective?

I have no problem because I have God leading me.

GC wrote: "Jesus knew this truth before the beginning of time, just a little bit before Plato don't you think".

GC you kill me sometimes lol it's kind of hard for Jesus to know anything since he did not exist and could not even take the time out to write out his own thoughts for himself. Everything the bible says he said was actually what someone else wrote he said, in other words it was hearsay.