(June 10, 2011 at 4:08 pm)eric209 Wrote:

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First of all. I dont believe the words "necessary result" in there.

Secondly where does it say how and when you will receive saving grace. How will you know someone received it?

And for third no series of verses say that.


Subtle interpretations aside lets see if you can come with the verse(s)/

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Quote:

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19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties,

21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.

24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk.

26 Let us not become vainglorious, provoking one another, envying one another.

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Quote:

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1 And again he began to teach by the sea side. And there is gathered unto him a very great multitude, so that he entered into a boat, and sat in the sea; and all the multitude were by the sea on the land.
2 And he taught them many things in parables, and said unto them in his teaching,
3 Hearken: Behold, the sower went forth to sow:
4 and it came to pass, as he sowed, some seed fell by the way side, and the birds came and devoured it.
5 And other fell on the rocky ground, where it had not much earth; and straightway it sprang up, because it had no deepness of earth:
6 and when the sun was risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
7 And other fell among the thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
8 And others fell into the good ground, and yielded fruit, growing up and increasing; and brought forth, thirtyfold, and sixtyfold, and a hundredfold.
9 And he said, Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parables.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables:
12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them.
13 And he saith unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how shall ye know all the parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; and when they have heard, straightway cometh Satan, and taketh away the word which hath been sown in them.
16 And these in like manner are they that are sown upon the rocky places, who, when they have heard the word, straightway receive it with joy;
17 and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway they stumble.
18 And others are they that are sown among the thorns; these are they that have heard the word,
19 and the cares of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And those are they that were sown upon the good ground; such as hear the word, and accept it, and bear fruit, thirtyfold, and sixtyfold, and a hundredfold.

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(June 10, 2011 at 5:23 pm)eric209 Wrote:

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all of those who are of Christ lost their passion for the things of the flesh when they became a Christian.

so whats the difference of being a christian and only thinking they are because alot if not all christians do not show that which the verse claims.

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(June 10, 2011 at 5:30 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:

(June 10, 2011 at 5:23 pm)eric209 Wrote:

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all of those who are of Christ lost their passion for the things of the flesh when they became a Christian.

so whats the difference of being a christian and only thinking they are because alot if not all christians do not show that which the verse claims.

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Well claiming to be a Christian does not automatically make a person one, only saving grace does and saving grace results in the fruit of the spirit. Even though Christians will still struggle with sin, I know lots of people who say they are Christians who do exercise the fruit of the spirit.

Also if i want any credibilty with those who do believe i need to be able to understand them.

I like you Eric, even though you may not believe it, you at least take an interest in trying to figure theological issues out. Kudos.

(June 10, 2011 at 5:41 pm)eric209 Wrote:

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all of those who are of Christ lost their passion for the things of the flesh when they became a Christian.

so whats the difference of being a christian and only thinking they are because alot if not all christians do not show that which the verse claims.



the main thing i agree with is the whole "neccesary result" that seems to be an added non biblical assumption.

Also most atheists i know have read quite a bit of the theology of all the major religions. I look at it much like you probably look at greek mythology. A part of culture but not fact. I plan on taking my daughter to all of the major religions on occasion so that she can be aware of them and understand and empathize with the members of those religions. I just don't believe indoctrinating her that the religions posses any revealed truths or should be free of a skeptical and curious mind.

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(June 10, 2011 at 6:49 pm)Statler Waldorf Wrote:

(June 10, 2011 at 5:41 pm)eric209 Wrote:

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all of those who are of Christ lost their passion for the things of the flesh when they became a Christian.

so whats the difference of being a christian and only thinking they are because alot if not all christians do not show that which the verse claims.



the main thing i agree with is the whole "neccesary result" that seems to be an added non biblical assumption.

Also most atheists i know have read quite a bit of the theology of all the major religions. I look at it much like you probably look at greek mythology. A part of culture but not fact. I plan on taking my daughter to all of the major religions on occasion so that she can be aware of them and understand and empathize with the members of those religions. I just don't believe indoctrinating her that the religions posses any revealed truths or should be free of a skeptical and curious mind.

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Well I think that logically you can conclude that the fruit of the spirit is a necessary result of saving grace just from the verses I gave. It does not say it explicitly, but it does say that all of those who are of Christ will lose their passion of the things of the flesh and all of the seeds planted in good soil will bear fruit. So I believe the teaching definitely is there. I don't believe that Christianity inhibits a curious mind or skepticism for that matter; I feel it opens up the door to all sorts of knowledge and actually makes me skeptical of naturalism So maybe we are just curious about and skeptical of different issues ya know?

(June 10, 2011 at 7:02 pm)eric209 Wrote:

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Then you agree that the bible is wrong on many amount of things? If you are willing to interpret the bible logic or with skepticism I would argue this is a necessary result. If you need examples let me know.

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(June 10, 2011 at 7:02 pm)eric209 Wrote: Then you agree that the bible is wrong on many amount of things? If you are willing to interpret the bible logic or with skepticism I would argue this is a necessary result. If you need examples let me know.