(December 6, 2016 at 8:03 am)Ignorant Wrote: 2) His resurrection is meant for every person. If he rose from the dead, then everyone (atheist, theist, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, etc.) will also rise from the dead. Death is not, therefore, the end. All things will be restored to an existence without corruption and death (i.e. eternal existence).

How literally are we meant to take this stuff?

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/516593...urrection/

(December 6, 2016 at 5:11 am)robvalue Wrote: I don't know why resurrection is considered such a big deal anyway. In the first book he created everything ever. Standing a dead Jew back up is hardly comparable.

We are a dual natured being. Body and soul. Body meaning this life, and soul meaning or pointing to the next.

So Because the wage of sin is death. Meaning if you sin once in your life, you forfeit your life. (both this one and the next) Your Body (this life) must die and your Spirit must die.

Jesus however Trades His Righteousness (his perfect lead life for yours) Meaning Christ dies in your place (spiritually speaking/on behalf of your soul) Now, Whether you want to trivialize this process as having little to no cost to Him or not
is not important, what is, is that the sinner does not have to fully pay this debt, as Christ took it upon Himself to pay. A debt we could not pay, even if it was just spare change to Him.

His resurrection represents his ablity to call all of those who died under his name/In his righteousness back from death.
Now because the wage of sin is death, once He/we died that debt as paid. So upon resurrection everything starts over.

(December 6, 2016 at 10:29 am)Mathilda Wrote: How does this work then?

Magic! The convenient thing about defending a being who is all-powerful and all-knowing is that he can do anything, and admitting that "we don't know" does not qualify as a gap that we can fit science into.

Quote:And more importantly, are all your answers to the questions I have asked in the Bible or did you just make them up because you want to believe in the fantasy?

Until one of these recent threads, I didn't know that the catechism is a way of updating/clarifying the Bible. But it's not an uncommon way to deal with the problems in the Bible. The JWs have a 'governing body' that they claim is endowed with holy spirit so that their interpretations of the Bible can change as a result of god shining "new light" on his ancient holy texts. And it's not unusual for some of those "interpretations" to go into detail that really isn't there. If you thought that an omni-everything god was convenient, imagine an infallible work from that god that can be "reinterpreted" as often and as thoroughly as needed!

(December 6, 2016 at 10:02 am)Tonus Wrote: This implies that god will resurrect some people for the specific purpose of causing them unending torment. [1] That will seem like a just punishment for some people, but how many rebellious teens who committed suicide will be writhing in agony for all of eternity next to Adolf Hitler? [2] And does it really ease the conscience to say that they created this punishment through their shitty actions in this temporal life?  Will god hear those cries and do nothing for the billions of people writing in torment forever and ever because they were poor citizens for a portion of the infinitesimally small slice of time that they existed? [3] For every child-abuser, how many drug addicts will be writhing in torment for the rest of time?  For every mafia hit-man, how many gays?  For every wife beater, how many atheists? [4]

1) That is one way to see it. I tend to see it like this: the future resurrection and this life's relation to it are just simply realities about the cosmos. The way you live now WILL determine the way you live at the resurrection. Our temporal actions truly do "echo" in eternity. Poorly lived lives do not bring joy even in this life. Why would they in eternity?

2) Probably way fewer than we think. God usually sorts through the true psychological and emotional suffering of those poor teenagers so that he can get to the heart. His mercy goes farther than we typically give credit. That doesn't mean every suicide is forgiven (maybe they are maybe they aren't?), but it means that God's judgment is not all that easy to figure out. We typically judge wrong when we are trying to guess at other people's eternal "echo" of their life's action.

3) I have no idea. But if it IS true that our temporal action contributes to a summation of an eternal "echoed" life, then torment in the next life means that you tormented yourself and others in this one. 

Hell isn't all or nothing. Read Dante's Inferno. There isn't a whole lot of writhing by the pagan philosophers is there? That seems to me to be a more accurate image of what awaits most people who live their way into hell. In other words, if you live a decent life (even as an atheist) that you guide as much as possible to your honest assessment of what is true, but you don't live that live in Christ, that doesn't mean you will, therefore, suffer eternal and terrible torment. It only means that you won't enjoy a divinely-human life for eternity. All eternal life is divinely-joyful, but some lives are more joyful than others. All the non-joyful eternal lives range from a sort of incomplete human happiness which knows that divine happiness was possible, all the way to writhing torment which knows that EVERYTHING else was possible.

4) Nothing is an automatic self-damnation. The "best" child-molesters will suffer a GREAT deal more than the worst drug-addict or gay person. It's not a binary as you might think.

(December 6, 2016 at 11:06 am)Ignorant Wrote:

(December 6, 2016 at 10:02 am)Tonus Wrote: This implies that god will resurrect some people for the specific purpose of causing them unending torment. [1] That will seem like a just punishment for some people, but how many rebellious teens who committed suicide will be writhing in agony for all of eternity next to Adolf Hitler? [2] And does it really ease the conscience to say that they created this punishment through their shitty actions in this temporal life?  Will god hear those cries and do nothing for the billions of people writing in torment forever and ever because they were poor citizens for a portion of the infinitesimally small slice of time that they existed? [3] For every child-abuser, how many drug addicts will be writhing in torment for the rest of time?  For every mafia hit-man, how many gays?  For every wife beater, how many atheists? [4]

1) That is one way to see it. I tend to see it like this: the future resurrection and this life's relation to it are just simply realities about the cosmos. The way you live now WILL determine the way you live at the resurrection. Our temporal actions truly do "echo" in eternity. Poorly lived lives do not bring joy even in this life. Why would they in eternity?

2) Probably way fewer than we think. God usually sorts through the true psychological and emotional suffering of those poor teenagers so that he can get to the heart. His mercy goes farther than we typically give credit. That doesn't mean every suicide is forgiven (maybe they are maybe they aren't?), but it means that God's judgment is not all that easy to figure out. We typically judge wrong when we are trying to guess at other people's eternal "echo" of their life's action.

3) I have no idea. But if it IS true that our temporal action contributes to a summation of an eternal "echoed" life, then torment in the next life means that you tormented yourself and others in this one. 

Hell isn't all or nothing. Read Dante's Inferno. There isn't a whole lot of writhing by the pagan philosophers is there? That seems to me to be a more accurate image of what awaits most people who live their way into hell. In other words, if you live a decent life (even as an atheist) that you guide as much as possible to your honest assessment of what is true, but you don't live that live in Christ, that doesn't mean you will, therefore, suffer eternal and terrible torment. It only means that you won't enjoy a divinely-human life for eternity. All eternal life is divinely-joyful, but some lives are more joyful than others. All the non-joyful eternal lives range from a sort of incomplete human happiness which knows that divine happiness was possible, all the way to writhing torment which knows that EVERYTHING else was possible.

4) Nothing is an automatic self-damnation. The "best" child-molesters will suffer a GREAT deal more than the worst drug-addict or gay person. It's not a binary as you might think.

Great post! I can stand behind this 100%.

I'd also like to add though that the "torment" of Hell comes from the darkness in our own hearts, and not from God. We are creatures of love, made for love, and fulfilled by love. If we choose to be consumed by greed and hate instead of love, we will feel empty and bitter and miserable. That's the torment. The schism that comes when love (God) is cast aside.

So Catholic Church doctrine is based on Dante's Inferno, now? It doesn't even pretend to be scripture, it's literally a fantasy.

(December 6, 2016 at 11:06 am)Ignorant Wrote: The way you live now WILL determine the way you live at the resurrection. Our temporal actions truly do "echo" in eternity. Poorly lived lives do not bring joy even in this life. Why would they in eternity?

Would the afterlife be noticeably different from the current one?  Do you think that our afterlives will be anything at all like our current ones?  Is heaven a place that feels like a real world or city?  Is hell a place that feels like a cavern dug into the earth or a lake that is on fire?  If my afterlife is an echo of my current life, then I'd spend eternity being pretty carefree and happy.  Does that mean I'd be in heaven in spite of my atheism?  Or in something akin to the suburbs of hell, where life really isn't that bad because they keep the undesireables out?

I don't know how to answer your question without understanding the actual circumstances of the afterlife.  This was something that I never saw answered as a theist, and that I've never seen answered since.

Quote:3) I have no idea. But if it IS true that our temporal action contributes to a summation of an eternal "echoed" life, then torment in the next life means that you tormented yourself and others in this one.

But there are sinful actions which may not be the cause of torment to others, or which require us to stretch the meaning of 'torment.'  A person who directs porn videos for a living and is a friendly and caring person his whole life... what happens to him?

Quote:Hell isn't all or nothing. Read Dante's Inferno.

Is Dante's Inferno considered canon by the Church?  The Bible is either vague on the concept of hell (if you interpret it all as metaphor) or quite clear on the concept (if you interpret it literally).  Jesus' own teaching tended to be all-or-nothing.

Quote:4) Nothing is an automatic self-damnation. The "best" child-molesters will suffer a GREAT deal more than the worst drug-addict or gay person. It's not a binary as you might think.

Your descriptions make me think that some parts of hell aren't quite, uh... hellish.  I know that Jesus spoke of some being called "least" in heaven, which means that heaven might also be fragmented along such lines.  So maybe heaven and hell are on a single plane of existence where there are slums at one end leading towards nicer housing until you get to a decent suburban area where it rains just a bit too often, and then there's a big gate separating them from a nice neighborhood where you can keep your doors unlocked, leading up to the classy rich neighborhood that's just a short walk from God's office (whose schedule is always clear because no one complains).

I mean, if the worst slum in hell gets cable TV then maybe eternity isn't so bad, unless all it shows are re-runs of The Apprentice.

(December 6, 2016 at 11:28 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: So Catholic Church doctrine is based on Dante's Inferno, now? It doesn't even pretend to be scripture, it's literally a fantasy.

No, it is not Church doctrine. We know very little about what the afterlife is actually like, so we cannot say officially. Theologians have their theories, and Dante's Inferno is a well accepted one.

That's a very loose use of the word 'theory'.