(January 4, 2017 at 12:13 pm)Emjay Wrote: Thank you. I was just curious about your perspective on that (and developing my own) but not referring it to any particular decision... just interested in the process, as I always am. That's kind of how I would envisage it as well... as like dominoes.

Quote:But in regards to God's being perfect only in that he does not sin, I'm not sure what you mean.

That is how "perfection" is measured when Speaking of God. Without sin.

Quote: I take God to be the creator of the notion of sin, in the sense that without the humans he creates (or other beings... if he created angels as well), there can be no sin. In other words he sets the rules his creations have to abide by... and those rules are whatever offends him.

No. We do not have to abide by rules we do not fathom. That is what the tree of KNOWLEDGE represented. They were made aware of Good and evil. With this awareness comes responsibility

Quote:So are you saying that he is perfect because he abides by his own rules or are you saying that sin is somehow an objective concept, separate from both God and man, that both have to abide by?

Neither.
I am saying God is perfect or rather the divine standard. Because He is a divine standard He sets the rules of perfection.

(January 4, 2017 at 4:28 pm)Drich Wrote: Because He is a divine standard He sets the rules of perfection.

You have to see how tautological that is, Drich. If he gets to set the rules of what's perfect, of course he's going to say that he's perfect.

(January 4, 2017 at 4:28 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 4, 2017 at 12:13 pm)Emjay Wrote: Thank you. I was just curious about your perspective on that (and developing my own) but not referring it to any particular decision... just interested in the process, as I always am. That's kind of how I would envisage it as well... as like dominoes.

Quote:But in regards to God's being perfect only in that he does not sin, I'm not sure what you mean.

That is how "perfection" is measured when Speaking of God. Without sin.

Quote: I take God to be the creator of the notion of sin, in the sense that without the humans he creates (or other beings... if he created angels as well), there can be no sin. In other words he sets the rules his creations have to abide by... and those rules are whatever offends him.

No. We do not have to abide by rules we do not fathom. That is what the tree of KNOWLEDGE represented. They were made aware of Good and evil. With this awareness comes responsibility

Quote:So are you saying that he is perfect because he abides by his own rules or are you saying that sin is somehow an objective concept, separate from both God and man, that both have to abide by?

Neither.
I am saying God is perfect or rather the divine standard. Because He is a divine standard He sets the rules of perfection.

Okay, I understand what you mean by divine standard; the rules reflect what he is.

So how does the Ten Commandments fit into this as compared to the tree of knowledge and good and evil? That's what I was talking about by rules of sin that his creations have to abide by.

When you boil it all down, the Ten Commandments, among other rules, are really only a way for the god character to forbid man from getting too big for his britches. "Hey, why'd you kill those people and take all their stuff? I didn't tell you to do that (this time)?" It's so they don't start to feel like they have all the power and have no need for god, and take that power away from the clergy and whoever made up the stories in the first place. Just another control mechanism, but with a slightly more sinister bent than is traditionally proposed by guys like George Carlin.

(January 4, 2017 at 5:04 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: 'And the Lord saith unto the people, "Do ye nothing in my name".  I'd be OK with that.  People walking about with somewhat nebulous ideas about God strikes me as preferable to a situation where people know exactly what God wants and exactly how I should behave and exactly what they need to do to make sure I get it right.

I tend to rate religions by how much they pester me.  I can honestly say that Deists have never shown up at my door of a Sunday morning with pamphlets.

Boru

True, there aren't a lot of fundamental deist. This thread occurred to me when that Poe came in here the other day talking about why atheist think god doesn't exist, or something like that. In her religious views she put that she believed in god but not organized religion. I couldn't find her thread again , so I started this one.

(January 4, 2017 at 5:01 pm)Astonished Wrote: When you boil it all down, the Ten Commandments, among other rules, are really only a way for the god character to forbid man from getting too big for his britches. "Hey, why'd you kill those people and take all their stuff? I didn't tell you to do that (this time)?" It's so they don't start to feel like they have all the power and have no need for god, and take that power away from the clergy and whoever made up the stories in the first place. Just another control mechanism, but with a slightly more sinister bent than is traditionally proposed by guys like George Carlin.

I'm just asking these questions of Drich out of curiosity about his opinion and to help conceptualise some stuff from the Christian perspective. But I'm not on the attack... just curious. So whether I agree with you or not is irrelevant because I'm not looking to start an argument (at this time at least ). We all have and are entitled to our opinions and I'm just curious as to what his are. So I'll just ask my questions and then I'll be gone.

(January 4, 2017 at 4:30 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:

(January 4, 2017 at 4:28 pm)Drich Wrote: Because He is a divine standard He sets the rules of perfection.

You have to see how tautological that is, Drich.  If he gets to set the rules of what's perfect, of course he's going to say that he's perfect.

now don't turn off that light bulb yet.. leave it on long enough so you can see, that is how every measure of perfection is established. The ultimate authority on a given subject sets the measure how they see fit.

---

(January 4, 2017 at 4:50 pm)Emjay Wrote:

(January 4, 2017 at 4:28 pm)Drich Wrote: That is how "perfection" is measured when Speaking of God. Without sin.

No. We do not have to abide by rules we do not fathom. That is what the tree of KNOWLEDGE represented. They were made aware of Good and evil. With this awareness comes responsibility

Neither.
I am saying God is perfect or rather the divine standard. Because He is a divine standard He sets the rules of perfection.

Okay, I understand what you mean by divine standard; the rules reflect what he is.

YES!!! The rules reflect who God is!

Quote:So how does the Ten Commandments fit into this as compared to the tree of knowledge and good and evil? That's what I was talking about by rules of sin that his creations have to abide by.

They serve only ONE purpose. To show us we will never be like God according to the rules/how hard we work at being like God.

So then the rules/law push us to seek another form of righteousness (other than being found righteous by the rules) The form is called atonement. Where someone righteous by the rules gives us his righteousness and takes on our sins and is punished for it. So we may stand before God as He could stand before God. Without sin/perfect.

---

(January 4, 2017 at 5:01 pm)Astonished Wrote: When you boil it all down, the Ten Commandments, among other rules, are really only a way for the god character to forbid man from getting too big for his britches. "Hey, why'd you kill those people and take all their stuff? I didn't tell you to do that (this time)?" It's so they don't start to feel like they have all the power and have no need for god, and take that power away from the clergy and whoever made up the stories in the first place. Just another control mechanism, but with a slightly more sinister bent than is traditionally proposed by guys like George Carlin.

The whole NT pushes past the 'rules' for our ultimate righteousness. God without religion is freedom from the law. Religion is being bound by some form of religious law or another.

(January 4, 2017 at 6:04 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 4, 2017 at 4:30 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: You have to see how tautological that is, Drich.  If he gets to set the rules of what's perfect, of course he's going to say that he's perfect.

now don't turn off that light bulb yet.. leave it on long enough so you can see, that is how every measure of perfection is established. The ultimate authority on a given subject sets the measure how they see fit.

---

(January 4, 2017 at 4:50 pm)Emjay Wrote: Okay, I understand what you mean by divine standard; the rules reflect what he is.

YES!!! The rules reflect who God is!

Quote:So how does the Ten Commandments fit into this as compared to the tree of knowledge and good and evil? That's what I was talking about by rules of sin that his creations have to abide by.

They serve only ONE purpose. To show us we will never be like God according to the rules/how hard we work at being like God.

So then the rules/law push us to seek another form of righteousness (other than being found righteous by the rules) The form is called atonement. Where someone righteous by the rules gives us his righteousness and takes on our sins and is punished for it. So we may stand before God as He could stand before God. Without sin/perfect.

---

(January 4, 2017 at 5:01 pm)Astonished Wrote: When you boil it all down, the Ten Commandments, among other rules, are really only a way for the god character to forbid man from getting too big for his britches. "Hey, why'd you kill those people and take all their stuff? I didn't tell you to do that (this time)?" It's so they don't start to feel like they have all the power and have no need for god, and take that power away from the clergy and whoever made up the stories in the first place. Just another control mechanism, but with a slightly more sinister bent than is traditionally proposed by guys like George Carlin.

The whole NT pushes past the 'rules' for our ultimate righteousness. God without religion is freedom from the law. Religion is being bound by some form of religious law or another.

Being an arrogant twat is not perfection. Ergo god is not perfect.

(January 4, 2017 at 6:04 pm)Drich Wrote:

(January 4, 2017 at 4:50 pm)Emjay Wrote: So how does the Ten Commandments fit into this as compared to the tree of knowledge and good and evil? That's what I was talking about by rules of sin that his creations have to abide by.

They serve only ONE purpose. To show us we will never be like God according to the rules/how hard we work at being like God.

So then the rules/law push us to seek another form of righteousness (other than being found righteous by the rules) The form is called atonement. Where someone righteous by the rules gives us his righteousness and takes on our sins and is punished for it. So we may stand before God as He could stand before God. Without sin/perfect.

Okay, thank you I think we've come full circle now (including your reply to FAF) and back onto familiar ground. I have nothing more to ask at this time so see you next time Tom (or Jerry... never got as far as deciding which was which ).

Interesting thread.
Back when I was in the 9th circle of hell known as online dating, quite a few of the guys I met checked off the "spiritual but not religious" box. I got the impression it was sort of hip to say that.

Just another way of saying "I'm into mindless woo" in my opinion.