(February 13, 2017 at 1:21 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: I miss it, sometimes.  There's a comfort in just believing, it doesn't matter what it is.  Just to believe.

Do you find you have secular beliefs which you just believe in spite of the lack of supporting evidence?

I've never missed it. When I was religious it was comforting to think that god was by my side, but when I stopped believing so, nothing changed in terms of how I felt. I also dislike the idea of the theistic* god because I like independency, which was also a relief.

(February 13, 2017 at 5:58 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(February 13, 2017 at 1:21 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: I miss it, sometimes.  There's a comfort in just believing, it doesn't matter what it is.  Just to believe.

Do you find you have secular beliefs which you just believe in spite of the lack of supporting evidence?

By lack of supporting evidence I take it you mean to imply that God lacks supporting evidence and that the secular parallel would be the same. I had supporting evidence for God in the form of personal experiences, so I think you're searching for the wrong parallel. I like to believe that this country will survive Trump. I like to believe that consciousness is a product of the brain, though I recognize elements of that argument are missing. I believe that things can "just be" without there needing to be any higher explanation than the laws of physics, but I don't have any real evidence of that. It's more a negative case that the alternative is not justified. And I know that my personality "trends" toward the atheistic and liberal. There are going to be things I believe just because of the biases inherent those stances, in being human. It's impossible, I think, to escape our biases. As a result there are going to be things I just believe because believing them is just the type of person that I am. Even as a theist, there was a strong bias toward atheism in me. So, I suppose I'd say yes there are.

I think the ultimate form of just believing comes in fictional stories. We absorb the characters, and if the story is good, we just believe. There's a parallel element in all the stories of Krishna and Siva and Kali and Hanuman, that you don't necessarily judge them to be true or false. The stories themselves transcend the question of what is real. I imagine it's a part of the experience of our inner world writ large in the outer world. It's an interplay of themes and archetypes, all of which are both true and not, fiction and truth. What do we get from the experience of watching a movie or a television series? We put the question of truth on hold and immerse ourselves in the characters. We get so involved, we feel genuine loss when a character dies or has a setback. The feelings transcend the question of whether the character is real. They are real to us.

(February 13, 2017 at 4:38 pm)Drich Wrote:

(February 13, 2017 at 10:29 am)Rhondazvous Wrote: For those of you who have a history in a particular religion and moved away from it, I mean do you ever miss the feeling of believing you had a personal relationship with god?

A few weeks ago, to my surprise, I went through a period of nostalgia.  I shouldn’t have been surprised.  Twenty-five years of indoctrination and programing in fear and guilt, joy and gratitude don’t just go away just because I realize intellectually that Christianity isn’t true.

If I shared those feelings and the dreams I used to have of being left in the rapture with a Christian, they will have an explanation for it. This is why indoctrination is so important in religion. We’re programmed with the strongest emotions and religionists know the feelings won’t go away—not permanently. All it takes is a trigger, a song, a memory. Then the Christians can say aha, in your heart of hearts you know god exists. And if I don’t know better, I’ll have to believe their interpretation of what I feel.

But I do know better and I resent being played with. To program me to believe something and then use that programming as proof of my belief is disingenuous. Of course, now they can interpret my resentment as proof that I hate god.

Ever find it hard to hate something that does not exist? Or is that just an 'atheist punishment' something you 'good people' do to punish God?

Did you know not all Christians will be raptured? their will be a remnant left to help people like you (people who know better but are pouting and 'hating a non existent God') to help find your way home...

...Or maybe it is you fence sitters who will become the remnant. Eitherway It's ok to hate God (for now anyways) He knows you do. Yet Grace abounds (your allowed to hate God for the moment, as this is apart of any real growth period.)

All I'm saying is it will be a whole hellva lot easier to resolve this anger and work things out now, when you have access to people with a 'better' understanding of God, then after the 'event of your indoctrination' will come, and you are given the task of being among the remnant.

Oh please...

It is very possible to hate what various fictional characters in texts stand for, Yahweh included.

And, IF your god actually existed, and the description of him of him and his actions in the Bible were an accurate representation of him, then I would certainly hate him.

No. 

Can't miss what never was.

(February 13, 2017 at 4:38 pm)Drich Wrote:

(February 13, 2017 at 10:29 am)Rhondazvous Wrote: For those of you who have a history in a particular religion and moved away from it, I mean do you ever miss the feeling of believing you had a personal relationship with god?

A few weeks ago, to my surprise, I went through a period of nostalgia.  I shouldn’t have been surprised.  Twenty-five years of indoctrination and programing in fear and guilt, joy and gratitude don’t just go away just because I realize intellectually that Christianity isn’t true.

If I shared those feelings and the dreams I used to have of being left in the rapture with a Christian, they will have an explanation for it. This is why indoctrination is so important in religion. We’re programmed with the strongest emotions and religionists know the feelings won’t go away—not permanently. All it takes is a trigger, a song, a memory. Then the Christians can say aha, in your heart of hearts you know god exists. And if I don’t know better, I’ll have to believe their interpretation of what I feel.

But I do know better and I resent being played with. To program me to believe something and then use that programming as proof of my belief is disingenuous. Of course, now they can interpret my resentment as proof that I hate god.

Ever find it hard to hate something that does not exist? Or is that just an 'atheist punishment' something you 'good people' do to punish God?

Did you know not all Christians will be raptured? their will be a remnant left to help people like you (people who know better but are pouting and 'hating a non existent God') to help find your way home...

...Or maybe it is you fence sitters who will become the remnant. Eitherway It's ok to hate God (for now anyways) He knows you do. Yet Grace abounds (your allowed to hate God for the moment, as this is apart of any real growth period.)

All I'm saying is it will be a whole hellva lot easier to resolve this anger and work things out now, when you have access to people with a 'better' understanding of God, then after the 'event of your indoctrination' will come, and you are given the task of being among the remnant.

I don't hate God. I hate a fictional depiction in a story book in fact several story books . Just the way I hate jar jar binks and he also likely doesn't exist. You can in fact hate something that doesn't exist we do it all the time.

I have no more hatred toward god than I have toward President Snow.

I hate the indoctrination. I hate the manipulation. And I hate the stupidity. For the church to do these things and then tell me it's god that I hate is just the icing on the cake.

(February 13, 2017 at 7:09 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(February 13, 2017 at 5:58 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Do you find you have secular beliefs which you just believe in spite of the lack of supporting evidence?

By lack of supporting evidence I take it you mean to imply that God lacks supporting evidence and that the secular parallel would be the same.  I had supporting evidence for God in the form of personal experiences, so I think you're searching for the wrong parallel.  I like to believe that this country will survive Trump.  I like to believe that consciousness is a product of the brain, though I recognize elements of that argument are missing.  I believe that things can "just be" without there needing to be any higher explanation than the laws of physics, but I don't have any real evidence of that.  It's more a negative case that the alternative is not justified.  And I know that my personality "trends" toward the atheistic and liberal.  There are going to be things I believe just because of the biases inherent those stances, in being human.  It's impossible, I think, to escape our biases.  As a result there are going to be things I just believe because believing them is just the type of person that I am.  Even as a theist, there was a strong bias toward atheism in me.  So, I suppose I'd say yes there are.

I think the ultimate form of just believing comes in fictional stories.  We absorb the characters, and if the story is good, we just believe.  There's a parallel element in all the stories of Krishna and Siva and Kali and Hanuman, that you don't necessarily judge them to be true or false.  The stories themselves transcend the question of what is real.  I imagine it's a part of the experience of our inner world writ large in the outer world.  It's an interplay of themes and archetypes, all of which are both true and not, fiction and truth.  What do we get from the experience of watching a movie or a television series?  We put the question of truth on hold and immerse ourselves in the characters.  We get so involved, we feel genuine loss when a character dies or has a setback.  The feelings transcend the question of whether the character is real.  They are real to us.

Well put and that, pretty much, is what I would say as well, minus the Hindu parts.  I also believe in things without evidence, though nothing of an empirical nature would require me to postulate a supernatural zone in order calm the apparent conflicts.  I actually do still believe in things beyond my (conscious) self, things which give meaning to my life in mysterious ways.  I hold the wellsprings of those meanings very lightly, as story and metaphor.  Archetypes is a word for it, a word that should make it clear we are not on any empirical ground here.  But really, I am a mystery to myself; or perhaps it is best to say the extent of myself is mysterious to the me I am aware of and for which I feel some accountability.

I was raised Catholic and rejected that faith at 13. Never identified with it. Was at odds with it as soon as the "at odds with it" center of my brain deveoloped. So , I don't miss that.

My parents then converted to Pentecostalism which I never gave the time of day.

I dabbled in Eastern Mysticism in my youth. I even joined a Sufi order but disinterest overcame my lack of commitment. Don't miss that.

In 1977 I once took a large dose of Purple Dragon Blotter Acid and experienced an ego destroying , blissed out, mergence with the Infinite Mind of the Universe. That would kill me at my age , so I don't miss that either.

No! I do not miss god or religion.

Can't really miss someone/something you never met.