(March 29, 2017 at 7:34 am)Jesster Wrote:

(March 29, 2017 at 7:30 am)Mathilda Wrote: Wtf is this obsession always with trans people on forums.

This. They think about this far more than I do and I'm living it. Get over yourselves.

Same.

Plenty of more important issues to concentrate on.  

A trans person who has been on hormones for a length of time will develop muscle mass (and therefore strength) comparable to people who are biologically the sex they are living as. So yes, it makes more sense for transwomen to compete with women and transmen to compete with men.

As others have said though, with all the shit going on in the world right now I don't know why this is high on anyone's list of things to give a fuck about.

Meh, I'm on the fence. It's not really something I care about to any great degree, but I do think sports should be fair. If it is scientifically proven to be fair, great. If it's scientifically proven to be an advantage, okay. Right now, it doesn't look like there's much evidence of anything.

The concept of fairness in sports relies on an arbitrary line drawn to decide who is in the same class. The concept loses all meaning and dissolves if you look closer and take into account more factors. kind of like free will. Therefore there are no logical arguments to tell us what is fair and what isn't. It's a an arbitrary decision.

That can be said for a lot of threads, though. As a fan of sports, and particularly women's, I think it's an interesting, and potentially concerning thing. I don't know much about the trans community. All I know is that I do agree with that community on the restroom issue.

I'm not a follower of coed team sports (except for rowing of either main gender usually having a female cox). I remember (vaguely) an issue in Pennsylvania where a girls' field hockey team had three or so boys on it. Equity in sports and all that. Some lawsuit was lodged on behalf of one of the boys, IIRC. This made me cringe. It was a step backwards, imho. 

I feel like trans ought to compete as what they biologically are. So, if they were born a boy and have gone through all their prerequisite surgical work and are visually a girl now, then fine. Compete on a girls' team. And not a men's. 

To me, it's an interesting thread.

ETA: I'm not sure why the seeming irritation at the OP making this thread (unless there is another such thread, but I haven't seen it). Though I'm not sure it necessary belongs in N&CA. Maybe Off Topic? But seriously, if it doesn't matter to you, put your energy on another thread, that you actually like.

(March 29, 2017 at 10:54 am)c172 Wrote: ETA: I'm not sure why the seeming irritation at the OP making this thread (unless there is another such thread, but I haven't seen it). Though I'm not sure it necessary belongs in N&CA. Maybe Off Topic? But seriously, if it doesn't matter to you, put your energy on another thread, that you actually like.

This same topic was brought up in another thread very recently. Alpha posted in it, too, so he knows it exists.

(March 29, 2017 at 10:53 am)Alex K Wrote: The concept of fairness in sports relies on an arbitrary line drawn to decide who is in the same class. The concept loses all meaning and dissolves if you look closer and take into account more factors. kind of like free will. Therefore there are no logical arguments to tell us what is fair and what isn't. It's a an arbitrary decision.

When it comes to strength, it's not arbitrary. The most elite men in weightlifting are going to kill the most elite women in weightlifting, assuming everyone is avoiding performance enhancers. Women would be absolutely murdered in an NFL game. I'm a fairly sizable woman, as far as height, and am stronger than most women I know, given my size. Most men I know, apart from the smallest of them, could easily best me in an arm wrestling match, and I know some lazy men. I agree with you in terms of intelligence, but we're talking about sports that require strength. Men and women are not on the same playing field for some arbitrary reason. It is because it's like pitting children against adults.

ETA: This thread is a poll, so it's different from the other thread. If I remember correctly, the other thread was about a specific case. This one seems more general. It's probably inspired by the other thread, but it's clearly a valid talking point.

Does anyone believe a 20yo Shaquille O'neal wouldn't have a biological advantage playing women's college basketball, at any testosterone level?

In basketball, I'd wager you could make non-trans women obsolete in women's basketball.

That shouldn't be possible if the playing field is level.

(March 29, 2017 at 11:02 am)Jesster Wrote: This same topic was brought up in another thread very recently. Alpha posted in it, too, so he knows it exists.

You greatly overestimate my memory. Can you link to it? I'd like to see what was said. I just looked back a few pages in current events and politics and didn't see it. Thanks.

(March 29, 2017 at 11:17 am)alpha male Wrote:

(March 29, 2017 at 11:02 am)Jesster Wrote: This same topic was brought up in another thread very recently. Alpha posted in it, too, so he knows it exists.

You greatly overestimate my memory.     Can you link to it? I'd like to see what was said. I just looked back a few pages in current events and politics and didn't see it. Thanks.

I'd rather not link to hateful posts. I'm sure you can work it out somehow once you are finished baiting me.