(April 5, 2017 at 5:22 am)Fake Messiah Wrote:

(April 4, 2017 at 10:02 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: So while wives are admonished to respect their husbands, husbands are called upon to sacrifice themselves even to the point of death for the sake of their wives and to love them as a very part of themselves. That is a heavy responsibility for any man.

Unfortunately that doesn't work. While in theory it may look like it could work that woman is closed in the house wiping floors and cooking while husband is bravely earning money it does not work out. Indeed the most famous case is of Turks living in Germany that hold their wives locked in the apartment, never to get out. And even Costanza Miriano is aware of it when she said in the interview: "the main problem for men is selfishness. They don’t want to die for the family, they want to have a part of life that’s separate, to save something [for themselves]." her solution is to be even more submissive to the man: "We have to give that good image. When a man feels he’s looked upon in that way, he wants to die, to give his life. If we stop complaining, stop criticizing, stop saying: 'You're not worth my life,'"

Women that have no education like that (not to mention rights to work) are vulnerable. Even if a woman finds a good guy that will take care of her and children like that, it all crumbles down if that husband dies or if he becomes abusive, alcoholic, sick, invalid and so on. She is then to jump desperately to another marriage so she can feed the kids. And also women in bad marriages like the ones of abusive and alcoholic husband are encouraged by (catholic) priests to stay married no matter what.

That is if she's allowed to choose, but in societies where women are so degraded that their sole existence is marriage we usually see girls are being married as children and sold as slaves. With that kind of viewpoint of women men quickly lose respect for them and to no wonder many harmful traditional practices sprouted from that like FGM; or their feet bound to make them more attractive to men (because as invalids they are likely to be more submissive); and that woman or girl's life is legally worth half that of a man's.

Other thing is that while there are women that are fine with that sort of living (heck there are even marriages where husband works at home and wife works) other require more intellectual stimulation and therefore suffer greatly in that kind of life where they can't have an intellectual education.
Subsequently since XX. century when women's education escalated their contribution to well-being of society trough science has greatly improved this world for all of us and therefore it would be unforgiving loss to just discard women's contribution in science, arts, journalism and other fields and make them into total disinterest in outside world - which is what church proscribes through this book. Especially when we live in a world where couples don't have to have 20 children in order for human race to survive.

I think this is an example of the issue at hand... That the word submit, would bring on this post is troubling enough, but that it was in response to a post about the Biblical position of husbands loving their wives, as Christ loved the Church is quite worrisome.   I might also note, that Christ loved the church, by being a servant, not by demanding to be served.

(April 4, 2017 at 10:02 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: I think the relevant passage here is Ephesisans 2:22-23:

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

As I recall Jesus Christ was tortured and died on the cross for our sake. So while wives are admonished to respect their husbands, husbands are called upon to sacrifice themselves even to the point of death for the sake of their wives and to love them as a very part of themselves. That is a heavy responsibility for any man.

The Scripture basically sounds like the husband is a god to the wife. Thing is, the wife is going to have plenty of opportunities to be submissive. The husband is unlikely to ever need to exchange his life for his wifes.

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From a Biblical aspect, I presume that a woman is expected to submit, even if she has a husband who's CLEARLY dumber than she is. 
Odd, that a wise, omniscient "God" would determine that the mere presence of meat swinging between the legs is an appropriate metric for deciding "How shit's going down in THIS house!". 

Very suspect, indeed!

(April 4, 2017 at 6:19 pm)alpha male Wrote: Yeah, my wife's so oppressed, hanging out at home while I work 70 hours a week. 

Oh. Well that settles it! This is clear evidence that women aren't oppressed. Thanks! I feel so much better now. Phew!

So, christians, all I need is two or more churches. 

Could it be one church but with a really really big rectory?

(April 3, 2017 at 11:48 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 9:49 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: There is also the context, that in this same passage, we are told to submit to each other. 

Yowzah! I'm down with that!

Damn.  All of a sudden there is hope for you.

(April 5, 2017 at 10:11 am)alpha male Wrote: The Biblical model of a wife isn't barefoot and chained to the stove.

Let's look together:

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” (Genesis 3:16)

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” (1 Corinthians 14:34−35)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.” (1 Corinthians 11:8−9)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.” (Ephesians 5:22−24)

"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.” (Ecclesiastes 25:22)

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (1 Timothy 2:11−14)

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.” (Leviticus 21:9)

(April 5, 2017 at 10:11 am)alpha male Wrote: The Biblical model of a wife isn't barefoot and chained to the stove.

I don't see it. Regarding women, a literal reading of the Bible is just not appropriate. Christians who agree should join with skeptics who care about fairness for women to challenge those who still promote the biblical view of women.

Here it from a woman herself, like writer and critic of religion Ruth Hurmence Green felt that the Bible is perhaps the greatest obstacle for women. She wrote:

"As long as women fail to denounce the Bible, they are in danger from it, for it has long been and continues to be their greatest oppressor. Its scriptures demean her and deprive her not only of her self-respect, but of veritable control over her body. The body makes her a slave, a piece of property and the mercy and whim of the male and in a state of total submission to her husband, who may even act as her abuser. She is regarded by the scriptures as the receptacle of the male seed and the means of reproducing the human race, and this is her only function."

(April 6, 2017 at 3:58 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Let's look together:

First let's look at Prov. 31. Did that portray a wife as barefoot and chained to a stove?

(April 6, 2017 at 8:10 am)alpha male Wrote:

(April 6, 2017 at 3:58 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Let's look together:

First let's look at Prov. 31. Did that portray a wife as barefoot and chained to a stove?

Was that cherry tasty?

Regarding the claim that Biblically, wives aren't allowed to have the skills needed to provide for themselves, my passage was much more on point than anything my opponent has put up.