(April 15, 2017 at 2:13 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(April 14, 2017 at 9:44 am)Little Rik Wrote: I do not follow religions.
I instead follow logic.

The hell you do!

You wouldn't know a logical argument if it bit you in the ass.

Logical arguments are a process of creating a new statement from one or more existing statements. An argument proceeds from a set of premises to a conclusion, by means of logical implication, via a procedure called logical inference.  

They follow the form:

Premise 1
P2
P3
.
.
.
Conclusion.

This is called the syllogistic form.

For the conclusion to follow logically from the premises, every premise has to be sound (they have to be demonstrably true), and the entire logical argument has to be valid (it can not be fallacious).

I have never seen anything close to that from you.

Your premises are almost always unfounded assertions based on what you want to be true. And you arguments are always fallacious.  

Please, prove that you are indeed logical, and create one syllogism that will lead to one of your conclusions.


Here, I'll give you a starting point. Fill in sound premises that will lead to your conclusion:

P1
P2
P3
.
Conclusion - Too many people get fooled when they see a body and think that his-her consciousness
is dead too.

Cut the crap Simon.
Let us instead see this from wiki.


There is no universal agreement as to the exact scope and subject matter of logic (see § Rival conceptions, below), but it has traditionally included the classification of arguments, the systematic exposition of the 'logical form' common to all valid arguments, the study of inference, including fallacies, and the study of semantics, including paradoxes. Historically, logic has been studied in philosophy (since ancient times) and mathematics (since the mid-1800s), and recently logic has been studied in computer science, linguistics, psychology, and other fields.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

It say.......VALID ARGUMENTS.....and other things as well.
My arguments are more than valid.
While there is no evidence that the consciousness or the I ever die there is a lot of evidence that the consciousness survive and is more free than when was stuck inside a body as also proven by thousand of NDEs experiences so I do have a valid argument and that follow a logic process.  

---

(April 15, 2017 at 10:09 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(April 15, 2017 at 9:19 am)Little Rik Wrote: Energy never die so to speak Brian.
Even science say so.
It just get recycled.
Nothing die in this universe.
There no evidence that anything die so your guessing stay a guessing.
Guessing and evidence are two different stories.

Too many people get fooled when they see a body and think that his-her consciousness
is dead too.
Don't be fooled Brian.
Isn't worth it.  

No, science does not say that because atoms move on that a single atom can behave like a adult in tact brain. Yes atoms move on, no shit, that does not make ANY god real, not yours not any, science merely says atoms make up everything. But there are huge buildups required to go from a single atom to an adult brain. You are trying to confuse a single tire as having the capability of being the in tact running car. When your brain dies YOU DIE, that is it, a single atom by itself cannot retain the same function as an in tact brain.

Atoms exist, atoms get recycled, therefor Allah. Still make sense to you?
Atoms exist, atoms get recycled, therefor Yahweh. Still make sense to you?
Atoms exist, atoms get recycled, therefor Buddha's reincarnation is true. Still make sense to you?
Atoms exist, atoms get recycled, therefor the Hindu creator God Bhrama is real. Still make sense to you?

How about the least complicated explanation as to why humans claim any god/s/deities? How about humans simply project a fictional concept of immortality because they like the idea and have vivid imaginations?

None of biological life or the universe needs a magic super cognition to explain. For the same reason you know Poseidon isn't needed to explain why hurricanes happen. For the same reason you don't need Thor to explain the existence of lightening.

You are making an hell of a confusion Brian.
Atoms are not an abstract entities like the consciousness.
Atoms can not build the consciousness.
Nobody build the consciousness.
The consciousness is already there and get more or less awareness according to the individual actions or not actions.
When the body die and it goes to the dogs so to speak there is a separation between this body and the consciousness.
Nothing really to do with atoms.  

If science merely says atoms make up everything then ask any scientist to give evidence that atoms make up the consciousness.
I can wait Brian but not for ever.  
I will wait until the next Christmas after that you lose the bet.  

@Rik. As Lucanus said, if that's the case, how do you explain how brain damage etc effects consciousness?

(April 16, 2017 at 7:09 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(April 15, 2017 at 2:13 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: The hell you do!

You wouldn't know a logical argument if it bit you in the ass.

Logical arguments are a process of creating a new statement from one or more existing statements. An argument proceeds from a set of premises to a conclusion, by means of logical implication, via a procedure called logical inference.  

They follow the form:

Premise 1
P2
P3
.
.
.
Conclusion.

This is called the syllogistic form.

For the conclusion to follow logically from the premises, every premise has to be sound (they have to be demonstrably true), and the entire logical argument has to be valid (it can not be fallacious).

I have never seen anything close to that from you.

Your premises are almost always unfounded assertions based on what you want to be true. And you arguments are always fallacious.  

Please, prove that you are indeed logical, and create one syllogism that will lead to one of your conclusions.


Here, I'll give you a starting point. Fill in sound premises that will lead to your conclusion:

P1
P2
P3
.
Conclusion - Too many people get fooled when they see a body and think that his-her consciousness
is dead too.

Cut the crap Simon.
Let us instead see this from wiki.


There is no universal agreement as to the exact scope and subject matter of logic (see § Rival conceptions, below), but it has traditionally included the classification of arguments, the systematic exposition of the 'logical form' common to all valid arguments, the study of inference, including fallacies, and the study of semantics, including paradoxes. Historically, logic has been studied in philosophy (since ancient times) and mathematics (since the mid-1800s), and recently logic has been studied in computer science, linguistics, psychology, and other fields.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

It say.......VALID ARGUMENTS.....and other things as well.
My arguments are more than valid.
While there is no evidence that the consciousness or the I ever die there is a lot of evidence that the consciousness survive and is more free than when was stuck inside a body as also proven by thousand of NDEs experiences so I do have a valid argument and that follow a logic process.  

---

(April 15, 2017 at 10:09 am)Brian37 Wrote: No, science does not say that because atoms move on that a single atom can behave like a adult in tact brain. Yes atoms move on, no shit, that does not make ANY god real, not yours not any, science merely says atoms make up everything. But there are huge buildups required to go from a single atom to an adult brain. You are trying to confuse a single tire as having the capability of being the in tact running car. When your brain dies YOU DIE, that is it, a single atom by itself cannot retain the same function as an in tact brain.

Atoms exist, atoms get recycled, therefor Allah. Still make sense to you?
Atoms exist, atoms get recycled, therefor Yahweh. Still make sense to you?
Atoms exist, atoms get recycled, therefor Buddha's reincarnation is true. Still make sense to you?
Atoms exist, atoms get recycled, therefor the Hindu creator God Bhrama is real. Still make sense to you?

How about the least complicated explanation as to why humans claim any god/s/deities? How about humans simply project a fictional concept of immortality because they like the idea and have vivid imaginations?

None of biological life or the universe needs a magic super cognition to explain. For the same reason you know Poseidon isn't needed to explain why hurricanes happen. For the same reason you don't need Thor to explain the existence of lightening.

You are making an hell of a confusion Brian.
Atoms are not an abstract entities like the consciousness.
Atoms can not build the consciousness.
Nobody build the consciousness.
The consciousness is already there and get more or less awareness according to the individual actions or not actions.
When the body die and it goes to the dogs so to speak there is a separation between this body and the consciousness.
Nothing really to do with atoms.  

If science merely says atoms make up everything then ask any scientist to give evidence that atoms make up the consciousness.
I can wait Brian but not for ever.  
I will wait until the next Christmas after that you lose the bet.  

What the hell are you smoking? ATOMS make up everything.  You are stupidly thinking "consciousness" having no mass means POOF a magic sky daddy. The speed of a car can be measured and speed isn't a physical thing, but the observation of a physical thing in motion. 

Atoms build up to the molecular level, which build up cells then organs, which leads to the brain IN MOTION. NO motion, no fuel no consciousness. Blow up your car engine into unusable pieces and see if you can speed in it. 

And none of your argument in any case points to your pet gap deity anymore than someone else can inscert their pet sky hero.

---

(April 14, 2017 at 9:54 am)emjay Wrote:

(April 14, 2017 at 9:18 am)Brian37 Wrote: Muslim=I like what I was sold.
Jew=I like what I was sold.
Christian=I like what I was sold.
Buddhist=I like what I was sold.
Hindu=I like what I was sold.

Awesome, good for you, but do humanity a favor STOP pretending your club is the source of our species goodness. Nobody has any universal and neutral method to prove these clubs are anything more than human invented clubs.

Skeptics don't hate every religious individual, but do not expect us to blindly swallow your club because you open your mouth and utter something or type it and hit submit. GET IN LINE TAKE A NUMBER. You are NOT the center of the planet and neither is your religion.

I can't tell whether you're raging against me in all of this and it's making me paranoid. For the record, as I said, I'm not a Buddhist... but I do 'like what I was sold' to the extent that I agree with it but just as like what I was sold with any psychological theory or whatever that I agree with. Course I can get pissed if I think it's being misrepresented, but I think you'd be the same if you perceived someone misrepresenting ABBA (I'm afraid
I can't do that, cos they're cool ). Anyway, I don't think it's the source of humanity's goodness... indeed it goes very much against human nature... just a tool to reduce suffering by stepping back from shit... ie stepping back from 'attachment' to things or emotional states like anger. As you can see I'm not that good at it (at least right now), but that varies, and a better Buddhist simply would not care at all what other others thought about them... whether they were misrepresented etc... because that's what non-attachment leads to. So I'm not trying to sell it to you, just responding to a perceived attack... but at the same time, aware that that is attachment (to anger, pride etc) and therefore something I should let go for my own good... it's just harder sometimes than others, and I'm more self-aware/mindful sometimes than others.

---

(April 14, 2017 at 9:44 am)Little Rik Wrote: I do not follow religions.
I instead follow logic.
We do not know who wrote the Bible.
Certainly not the Christian that came much later.
I am not an expert in Bible so I can not say whether what is written in the Bible is all truth all rubbish or some is true and some is rubbish in any case I take what make sense as good and what doesn't as bad.
That sentence that say.........Man created in God's image.......make a lot of sense that is why I explained to you my point.

Thanks for your answer. I understand what you're saying.

I am not "railing" against any individual nor trying to make anyone "paranoid". 

I am pointing out our species flawed evolution in that we gap fill and create clubs as a gap. That does have the real affect of creating social order and safety in numbers, but that is a false perception. Life was around long before humans and long before any written religion or stationary society.

My skepticism is based on our modern scientific knowledge and I don't give anyone a pass. I don't even see the word "atheist" as having any magic power to make an individual only do good or only do bad. The truth of all religions is "that was then, this is now". There are tons of empathetic individuals all over the planet, not because a religion makes them that way, but because our evolution produces the attribute of cooperation and empathy in that individual. I merely doubt ALL religions when someone claims it is coming out of antiquity in holy writings or holy people. 

If you have not read, and I keep pointing out this author and two books. If you want to understand my position "God The Failed Hypothesis" and "The New Atheism" both by Victor Stenger , in both books he debunks the idea of the need for a god/God/supernatural. But in the second book, "The New Atheism" in one of his later chapters he compares multiple religions WORLDWIDE, points out how each point to their "goodness" and claims to morality, and makes the point, and I agree, if everyone can point to those things, then it should be obvious that our behaviors are in us, not our labels.

Even Jefferson, without knowing how right he was in a modern scientific sense, saw goodness and morality in others who didn't share the same beliefs, "whence arises the morality of the atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists".

I cant put it any more simply than, "That was then, this is now". We do know where morality comes from, it comes from evolution. It comes from our socializing and by that socializing we form groups, but that does not mean everything we do makes that group right about everything, and that group can be centered around very false perceptions. 

Humans for the most part ON AVERAGE, think locally and defend that which they are raised in. It does foster protection in a local sense, but the downside is at the same time, it produces divisions against other groups.

I don't give anyone a pass on this, logically speaking only. I want more humans to consider that what makes us different isn't as important to me as what we have in common. It still remains we are the same species with the same ability to be compassionate or cruel. There is not one nation that does not have prisons or hospitals.

(April 16, 2017 at 7:46 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(April 16, 2017 at 7:09 am)Little Rik Wrote: Cut the crap Simon.
Let us instead see this from wiki.


There is no universal agreement as to the exact scope and subject matter of logic (see § Rival conceptions, below), but it has traditionally included the classification of arguments, the systematic exposition of the 'logical form' common to all valid arguments, the study of inference, including fallacies, and the study of semantics, including paradoxes. Historically, logic has been studied in philosophy (since ancient times) and mathematics (since the mid-1800s), and recently logic has been studied in computer science, linguistics, psychology, and other fields.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

It say.......VALID ARGUMENTS.....and other things as well.
My arguments are more than valid.
While there is no evidence that the consciousness or the I ever die there is a lot of evidence that the consciousness survive and is more free than when was stuck inside a body as also proven by thousand of NDEs experiences so I do have a valid argument and that follow a logic process.  

---

You are making an hell of a confusion Brian.
Atoms are not an abstract entities like the consciousness.
Atoms can not build the consciousness.
Nobody build the consciousness.
The consciousness is already there and get more or less awareness according to the individual actions or not actions.
When the body die and it goes to the dogs so to speak there is a separation between this body and the consciousness.
Nothing really to do with atoms.  

If science merely says atoms make up everything then ask any scientist to give evidence that atoms make up the consciousness.
I can wait Brian but not for ever.  
I will wait until the next Christmas after that you lose the bet.  

What the hell are you smoking? ATOMS make up everything.  You are stupidly thinking "consciousness" having no mass means POOF a magic sky daddy. The speed of a car can be measured and speed isn't a physical thing, but the observation of a physical thing in motion. 

Atoms build up to the molecular level, which build up cells then organs, which leads to the brain IN MOTION. NO motion, no fuel no consciousness. Blow up your car engine into unusable pieces and see if you can speed in it. 

And none of your argument in any case points to your pet gap deity anymore than someone else can inscert their pet sky hero.

All your ideas Brian are build on guessing not on evidence.

When you.......Blow up your car engine into unusable pieces........you still survive even if when your body-brain die.

The same goes for the consciousness when the body-brain die.

I guess you never thought about that Brian, did you?  

You show me evidence that the I or consciousness die when the body-brain die or that the atoms make the consciousness and I will cover you with 24 carat gold.  

Maybe you should go discuss your thoughts about consciousness with a corpse, Rik?

(April 16, 2017 at 7:46 am)Brian37 Wrote: I am not "railing" against any individual nor trying to make anyone "paranoid". 

I am pointing out our species flawed evolution in that we gap fill and create clubs as a gap. That does have the real affect of creating social order and safety in numbers, but that is a false perception. Life was around long before humans and long before any written religion or stationary society.

My skepticism is based on our modern scientific knowledge and I don't give anyone a pass. I don't even see the word "atheist" as having any magic power to make an individual only do good or only do bad. The truth of all religions is "that was then, this is now". There are tons of empathetic individuals all over the planet, not because a religion makes them that way, but because our evolution produces the attribute of cooperation and empathy in that individual. I merely doubt ALL religions when someone claims it is coming out of antiquity in holy writings or holy people. 

If you have not read, and I keep pointing out this author and two books. If you want to understand my position "God The Failed Hypothesis" and "The New Atheism" both by Victor Stenger , in both books he debunks the idea of the need for a god/God/supernatural. But in the second book, "The New Atheism" in one of his later chapters he compares multiple religions WORLDWIDE, points out how each point to their "goodness" and claims to morality, and makes the point, and I agree, if everyone can point to those things, then it should be obvious that our behaviors are in us, not our labels.

Even Jefferson, without knowing how right he was in a modern scientific sense, saw goodness and morality in others who didn't share the same beliefs, "whence arises the morality of the atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists".

I cant put it any more simply than, "That was then, this is now". We do know where morality comes from, it comes from evolution. It comes from our socializing and by that socializing we form groups, but that does not mean everything we do makes that group right about everything, and that group can be centered around very false perceptions. 

Humans for the most part ON AVERAGE, think locally and defend that which they are raised in. It does foster protection in a local sense, but the downside is at the same time, it produces divisions against other groups.

I don't give anyone a pass on this, logically speaking only. I want more humans to consider that what makes us different isn't as important to me as what we have in common. It still remains we are the same species with the same ability to be compassionate or cruel. There is not one nation that does not have prisons or hospitals.

Morality come from evolution but from individual evolution.
Life teach us that nothing come for free unless you as a child get a candy from a pedophile.  
The bread doesn't fall from the sky Brian.  



(color mine)

(April 16, 2017 at 9:02 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(April 16, 2017 at 7:46 am)Brian37 Wrote: What the hell are you smoking? ATOMS make up everything.  You are stupidly thinking "consciousness" having no mass means POOF a magic sky daddy. The speed of a car can be measured and speed isn't a physical thing, but the observation of a physical thing in motion. 

Atoms build up to the molecular level, which build up cells then organs, which leads to the brain IN MOTION. NO motion, no fuel no consciousness. Blow up your car engine into unusable pieces and see if you can speed in it. 

And none of your argument in any case points to your pet gap deity anymore than someone else can inscert their pet sky hero.

All your ideas Brian are build on guessing not on evidence.  

When you.......Blow up your car engine into unusable pieces........you still survive even if when your body-brain die.

The same goes for the consciousness when the body-brain die.

I guess you never thought about that Brian, did you?  

You show me evidence that the I or consciousness die when the body-brain die or that the atoms make the consciousness and I will cover you with 24 carat gold.  

Hello McFly....... ATOMS are like bricks, one single brick cannot be the entire brick house by itself. The individual bricks have to be in a structure to make the IN TACT HOUSE.

Now, if you want to make the attempt to PROVE you live beyond your body, find a way to decapitate your head from your body and visit me. HOWEVER, I would HIGHLY ADVISE YOU NOT TO TRY THAT.

Consciousness is not separate from your brain it is your brain in motion. It is buildup and outcome not a starting point. Just like land line telephone polls, and the phone lines, destroy the connections between the polls, deny the line energy your land line stops working.  When your cells break down the atoms in them cease to produce the same actions as when they did when in tact an healthy. 

This is your own refusal to accept your own mortality and finite existence. Nothing more.

(April 16, 2017 at 9:02 am)Little Rik Wrote: You show me evidence that the I or consciousness die when the body-brain die or that the atoms make the consciousness and I will cover you with 24 carat gold.  

No, you show evidence that the "I or consciousness" SURVIVES "when the body-brain die [sic]". That's the claim on the table, the claim that you and only you are making.

(April 16, 2017 at 9:50 am)Cyberman Wrote:

(April 16, 2017 at 9:02 am)Little Rik Wrote: You show me evidence that the I or consciousness die when the body-brain die or that the atoms make the consciousness and I will cover you with 24 carat gold.  

No, you show evidence that the "I or consciousness" SURVIVES "when the body-brain die [sic]". That's the claim on the table, the claim that you and only you are making.

Unfortunately most humans don't understand what causes them to think a after life exists. Even Hindus and Buddhists think of reincarnation as a "forever". What is really going on is purely mental. It is a false perception reflecting our evolutionary drive to move forward and continue. It is a false perception. Really no different than a dog confusing it's own reflection in the mirror as being another separate dog.

Most humans simply don't understand they are finite and the only place we really live on is in the memories of those whom survive us. But we are still finite, and while certainly unique as individuals, we really are nothing more than our brains in motion, very unique fingerprints sure, but still nothing more than physical mass and fuel in motion. 

Reality isn't romantic enough for most humans. Reality isn't romantic or sexy, but it is reality, and by accepting that you can understand the world better.

(April 16, 2017 at 7:46 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(April 14, 2017 at 9:54 am)emjay Wrote: I can't tell whether you're raging against me in all of this and it's making me paranoid. For the record, as I said, I'm not a Buddhist... but I do 'like what I was sold' to the extent that I agree with it but just as like what I was sold with any psychological theory or whatever that I agree with. Course I can get pissed if I think it's being misrepresented, but I think you'd be the same if you perceived someone misrepresenting ABBA (I'm afraid
I can't do that, cos they're cool ). Anyway, I don't think it's the source of humanity's goodness... indeed it goes very much against human nature... just a tool to reduce suffering by stepping back from shit... ie stepping back from 'attachment' to things or emotional states like anger. As you can see I'm not that good at it (at least right now), but that varies, and a better Buddhist simply would not care at all what other others thought about them... whether they were misrepresented etc... because that's what non-attachment leads to. So I'm not trying to sell it to you, just responding to a perceived attack... but at the same time, aware that that is attachment (to anger, pride etc) and therefore something I should let go for my own good... it's just harder sometimes than others, and I'm more self-aware/mindful sometimes than others.

I am not "railing" against any individual nor trying to make anyone "paranoid".

That's okay... I'm not paranoid about it any more after (I thought) clarifying my position to you. As far as I'm concerned it's done and dusted and how you choose to take or ignore that is your business. In any case, I think you're seeing an argument and claim from me that doesn't exist.  

Quote:I am pointing out our species flawed evolution in that we gap fill and create clubs as a gap. That does have the real affect of creating social order and safety in numbers, but that is a false perception. Life was around long before humans and long before any written religion or stationary society.

My skepticism is based on our modern scientific knowledge and I don't give anyone a pass. I don't even see the word "atheist" as having any magic power to make an individual only do good or only do bad. The truth of all religions is "that was then, this is now". There are tons of empathetic individuals all over the planet, not because a religion makes them that way, but because our evolution produces the attribute of cooperation and empathy in that individual. I merely doubt ALL religions when someone claims it is coming out of antiquity in holy writings or holy people.

If you have not read, and I keep pointing out this author and two books. If you want to understand my position "God The Failed Hypothesis" and "The New Atheism" both by Victor Stenger , in both books he debunks the idea of the need for a god/God/supernatural. But in the second book, "The New Atheism" in one of his later chapters he compares multiple religions WORLDWIDE, points out how each point to their "goodness" and claims to morality, and makes the point, and I agree, if everyone can point to those things, then it should be obvious that our behaviors are in us, not our labels.

 
I've never said anything against that... in fact I agree. I am not inspired by the Buddha's writings because of his reputation, but because of the logic of the argument put forward. If it had been written yesterday by a bloke in the pub it wouldn't make any difference to how I perceive it because a logical argument speaks for itself, regardless of author... it's the argument I find appealing not the author. For instance, I've been to a Buddhist monastery to meditate and I felt decidedly uncomfortable when it came to all the ritual bowing and reverence for the Buddha, and did not partake. It was made clear to me that it was only reverence for a wise teacher, not worship, but nonetheless that's how it appears. Likewise with the statues and imagery... not supposed to be idols but 'meditation objects'... reminders of the peace you're aiming for in meditation. But on first impressions, either look like worship, and even when explained, still seem like worship or at least taking reverence too far. I can admire someone as a great thinker, but that's as far as it goes; I would not bow before an image of Einstein, or on here Khemikal , and so likewise I will not bow before an image of the Buddha.

I get what you're saying about clubs and labels and agree wholeheartedly... where there are clubs and labels, conflict always follows. It says as much in very introduction of the book I recommended to you. If it weren't for something you wrote a long time ago, I wouldn't have known that there was sectarian violence even among Buddhists, so I know Buddhism where it is fused with religion is not exempt from this process... it's just what unfortunately naturally follows from labels and clubs. Basically I hate labels... they always bring out the worst in people, myself included. As I see it, one little word could change the world: 'some'... if we consistently said 'some x do/say/are y' rather than '[implicit all] x do/say/are y' then it would save a lot of conflict. I only wish I could remember that more often.

And the reason I took offence, and thus responded to you, basically comes down to that... that not all but only some Buddhists are religious. Where it's mixed with Hinduism or whatever, I have no idea what is being claimed, but as I understand it it is atheistic philosophy with no Gods in sight, nor heavens, hells etc... nothing arbitrary, just a (imo) compelling logical argument. So I responded to the implication that I, as one of that 'all', was being charmed by naked assertions and appeal to authority, and indeed to the implication that that was all that was offered by Buddhist teachings. That may be the case where religious Buddhism is concerned but if so, that is only some, not all of the whole picture. But that said, you've talked about (and against) Buddhism a long time, and when I've been in a more Buddhist frame of mind in the past, I've not responded precisely because to do so would create unnecessary conflict, and because ultimately the aim of Buddhism is to eliminate 'attachment' to temporary objects of awareness (ie everything of which you can be consciously aware). In this case it would be feelings of anger and pride and the aim would not be to eliminate the states themselves, but just attachment to them... where 'attachment' could be roughly translated as emotional investment. So basically be mindfully aware of them but detached from them, knowing they are transient... basically summed up pretty well by saying something like 'I am aware I'm feeling anger/pride, but it will inevitably pass... and I can either fuel that anger/pride by getting sucked into it, or let it go'. So the fact that I responded now is because basically I haven't been thinking like that for a while, so this has been a welcome reminder of what I've been missing; it doesn't matter if you're right and I'm wrong (about anything I mean... not just this) or I'm right and you're wrong, because attachment to either situation tends to lead to conflict... that's basically the Buddhist message (or one Buddhist message ).

Quote:Even Jefferson, without knowing how right he was in a modern scientific sense, saw goodness and morality in others who didn't share the same beliefs, "whence arises the morality of the atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists".

I cant put it any more simply than, "That was then, this is now". We do know where morality comes from, it comes from evolution. It comes from our socializing and by that socializing we form groups, but that does not mean everything we do makes that group right about everything, and that group can be centered around very false perceptions. 

Humans for the most part ON AVERAGE, think locally and defend that which they are raised in. It does foster protection in a local sense, but the downside is at the same time, it produces divisions against other groups.

I don't give anyone a pass on this, logically speaking only. I want more humans to consider that what makes us different isn't as important to me as what we have in common. It still remains we are the same species with the same ability to be compassionate or cruel. There is not one nation that does not have prisons or hospitals.

Fair enough. I've never made any claims one way or the other about the source of morality, and for the record I do not claim Buddhists to be more moral that anyone else. Buddhism (again, as I understand it) is not about that, only reducing suffering. It's about accepting the human condition for what it is, warts and all, and peacefully co-existing with it. So for instance, Buddhist monks on YouTube (I would recommend Ajahn Brahm... Londoner turned Buddhist as a very down to earth and funny bloke to watch) are not afraid to talk about when they've been angry, pissed off, etc. Because all those states are accepted as being part of the human condition. There is no 'sin' in Buddhism and Karma, if understood the way it is written in the book, is not some mystical force that comes and bites you on the arse for 'bad' deeds, but just the natural cause and effect response to actions in life... kind of like the 'Pay it forward' ripple effect... anger breeds anger... peace breeds peace etc... if you emotionally invest in negative states it tends to lead to future negative states through simple cause and effect, and vice versa for positive states.