If a person repents, honestly, then they should be forgiven (particularly by family).
This has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with secular morality, as well.

If I had a relative who had murdered, then truly felt terrible about it and took actual steps to prevent further harm (aka, Vader killing Palpatine), that shows real remorse and repentance, not just mouthing it, then they deserve to be forgiven. That does not mean let them lose on society. Fortunately in Star Wars Vader dies right after, so they don't have to deal with that sticky conundrum. But there is nothing inherently wrong with the message, as far as I can see. As a matter of fact, society would be better if more people could actually embrace this sort of message, instead of constantly seeking "justice" and revenge.

I honestly thought this topic was going to be about the Force and how you have to believe...blah blah. But even there, it is just believing in yourself, so I don't personally get all bent about it either.

(May 5, 2017 at 11:58 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(May 5, 2017 at 11:50 am)Minimalist Wrote: I gave up on them when it became clear they were simply going to make the same movie every time.

I guess you never watch anything made since 1905 in Whollyweird?

Pretty much.  Most movies suck.  Old movies are horribly overacted and modern movies are one explosion after another photographed 8 times from different angles so you are sure to get the idea that something is exploding.

The industry is rapidly devolving towards what Idiocracy showed with "Ass."

(May 5, 2017 at 1:08 pm)Aroura Wrote: If a person repents, honestly, then they should be forgiven (particularly by family).  
This has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with secular morality, as well.

If I had a relative who had murdered, then truly felt terrible about it and took actual steps to prevent further harm (aka, Vader killing Palpatine), that shows real remorse and repentance, not just mouthing it, then they deserve to be forgiven.  That does not mean let them lose on society.  Fortunately in Star Wars Vader dies right after, so they don't have to deal with that sticky conundrum.  But there is nothing inherently wrong with the message, as far as I can see.  As a matter of fact, society would be better if more people could actually embrace this sort of message, instead of constantly seeking "justice" and revenge.

I honestly thought this topic was going to be about the Force and how you have to believe...blah blah.  But even there, it is just believing in yourself, so I don't personally get all bent about it either.

You are still missing my point.

I am all for second chances and even for forgiveness. It is only a movie but it depicts GENOCIDE and the top henchman of the boss is in on it. It creates a very immoral plot line in my view. No, we are not talking about a robbery here, or a murder in the heat of passion, Darth took part in genocide as the plot goes. If he were my dad, no, I would want no part of him ever. Now that is not to say revenge no, but there is no way I would ever want to say one word to that person ever again. If contained outside of battle no, I don't want revenge, just containment. But that does not mean I would want to talk to them again. 

Nobody is talking about revenge. Ironically though the original name of "Return of the Jedi" was "Revenge of the Jedi".

All I know is that I've always wanted a light saber - mostly for stumping trees.

Right, and Darth is presented as a bad guy.

So, at what point would a person no longer be eligible for forgiveness? After killing 100 people, 500, 1000? Give us an exact number here.

Either people should be forgiven if they truly repent, or not. If you try and qualify it with specific crimes, then you are not in favor of second chances or forgiveness, you are in favor of your personal definition of Justice.

And thus Hitler could be in Heaven and Anne Frank would still be going to Hell.

(May 5, 2017 at 2:14 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: All I know is that I've always wanted a light saber - mostly for stumping trees.

Wouldn't that be awesome if God told Abraham to kill his kid with a light saber? Come on why not, we are talking about a book with talking donkeys. Or what if instead of God calling for she bears he gets Chewy to maul the kids?

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(May 5, 2017 at 2:16 pm)Aroura Wrote: Right, and Darth is presented as a bad guy.  

So, at what point would a person no longer be eligible for forgiveness?  After killing 100 people, 500, 1000?  Give us an exact number here.

Either people should be forgiven if they truly repent, or not.  If you try and qualify it with specific crimes, then you are not in favor of second chances or forgiveness, you are in favor of your personal definition of Justice.

"Oh shit I drunk and drove"  forgivable not murdering 5 million Jews. I could not forgive Hilter. If he hadn't killed himself I would have simply locked him up in prison for the rest of his life. Again if Hilter had been my dad, no I would NOT forgive him, but that doesn't mean I want revenge, but I would not be under any obligation to speak a word to him after knowing what he did. Genocide isn't something you can say "I am sorry" to even if you mean it.  

Even if it is the death of one person, nobody has a right to tell the individual who they forgive or dont forgive. It is more understandable when it is accidental or the heat of passion, but the higher the numbers that can be only called deliberate and someone like that if they are willing to commit genocide is probably NOT going to ask for forgiveness. Both Sadam and Gadaffi were defiant going to their deaths. And since Darth reflects the megelomanaic mindset of a psychopath in real life someone like that would not ask for forgiveness in any case.

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Holy shit, I wish I had a billion dollars I would make a movie mixing Star Wars with the bible!

Princes Lea is Mary.
Luke Skywalker is Jesus
Han Solo is Joseph
Ben is the holy ghost
Yoda is GOD
Darth Vader is also God/Lucifer

(May 5, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(May 5, 2017 at 12:51 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Well, more than that we know very he would have force choked saber-smited anyone who tried to stop its destruction.  But regardless he still gets to stand with the others in the force-filled afterlife fully chagrined by his 'dark period'.

Which is why it is good that this is only a movie. In real life we punish genocidal maniacs. Or I should say, we try. 

It really does unfortunately smack of biblical principles. Nobody holds him to account because all he had to say was "oops, my fault".

Do you mean no one holds Lucas to account for working in what you see as biblical themes?  Meh, I doubt if he cares and for the majority in this country it would probably be a plus.  Besides, who says the bible can't have perfectly good story lines as a work of fiction in addition to all the begetting lists and what not?

I forgive Darth Vader. He was taken over by the dark side. It wasn't his fault.

(May 5, 2017 at 12:17 pm)Brian37 Wrote: The first three were brilliantly put together as far as special effects, acting, and especially the music. But that plot no, I look back at that plot, find it very disturbing now.

I find your lack of faith...disturbing.