(July 18, 2011 at 11:08 am)thebigfudge Wrote:

(July 18, 2011 at 10:59 am)TheCarlisle Wrote: They were enslaved because they had repetitively claimed they had a God greater then any of the Egyptians. Last night, I couldn't find the evidence for an exodus, but I did find evidence (or lack of it) to conclude that there was no uprising by the slaves (no weapons found, only dead firstborn which is explained by the confirmed plagues) and they weren't freed by the Egyptians willingly - after all, they were enemies at the time. The only other scenario is that they left through an exodus as described by the Bible.

Can you share this trinket of evidence with us. the death of the firstborn

After writing that last post, I found this: http://www.angelfire.com/ill/hebrewisrael/ipuwer.html
4:3 "Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls." - The Papyrus Ipuwer
2:13 "He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere." - The Papyrus Ipuwer
The scientific evidence, along with the Papyrus Ipuwer, confirms all the plagues mentioned in the Bible to even specific and unnecessary details (unnecessary for deluding people, that is).

The Ipuwer is a poem.
This is an extract from Wikipedia.

Parallels with The Book of Exodus

Some have interpreted the document as an Egyptian account of the Plagues of Egypt and the Exodus in the Old Testament of the Bible, and it is often cited as proof for the Biblical account by various religious organisations.[23]
The association of the Ipuwer Papyrus with the Exodus as describing the same event is generally rejected by Egyptologists.[24] Roland Enmarch, author a new translation of the papyrus, notes: "The broadest modern reception of Ipuwer amongst non-Egyptological readers has probably been as a result of the use of the poem as evidence supporting the Biblical account of the Exodus."[25] While Dr. Enmarch himself rejects synchronizing the texts of the Ipuwer Papyrus and The Book of Exodus on grounds of historicity, in The reception of a Middle Egyptian poem: The Dialogue of Ipuwer.. he acknowledges that there are some textual parallels "particularly the striking statement that ‘the river is blood and one drinks from it’ (Ipuwer 2.10), and the frequent references to servants abandoning their subordinate status (e.g. Ipuwer 3.14–4.1; 6.7–8; 10.2–3). On a literal reading, these are similar to aspects of the Exodus account."[26] Commenting on such attempts to draw parallels, he writes that "all these approaches read Ipuwer hyper-literally and selectively" and points out that there are also conflicts between Ipuwer and the biblical account. He suggests that "it is more likely that Ipuwer is not a piece of historical reportage and that historicising interpretations of it fail to account for the ahistorical, schematic literary nature of some of the poem’s laments," but other Egyptologists disagree (see Genre section above). Examining what Enmarch calls "the most extensively posited parallel", the river becoming blood, he notes that it should not be taken "absolutely literally" as a description of an event but that both Ipuwer and Exodus might be metaphorically describing what happens at times of catastrophic Nile floods when the river is carrying large quantities of red earth, mentioning that Kitchen has also discussed this phenomenon.

So no its not scientific method. Its cherry picking certain lines from a poem and ignoring the ones that do not tie in with the bibles view.

Remember we are talking about 1000+ AD Egypt here. So plagues, sickness and disorder were common place. The Ipuwer is a work of prose not a factual account.

(July 18, 2011 at 11:31 am)thebigfudge Wrote: The Ipuwer is a poem.
This is an extract from Wikipedia.

Parallels with The Book of Exodus

Some have interpreted the document as an Egyptian account of the Plagues of Egypt and the Exodus in the Old Testament of the Bible, and it is often cited as proof for the Biblical account by various religious organisations.[23]
The association of the Ipuwer Papyrus with the Exodus as describing the same event is generally rejected by Egyptologists.[24] Roland Enmarch, author a new translation of the papyrus, notes: "The broadest modern reception of Ipuwer amongst non-Egyptological readers has probably been as a result of the use of the poem as evidence supporting the Biblical account of the Exodus."[25] While Dr. Enmarch himself rejects synchronizing the texts of the Ipuwer Papyrus and The Book of Exodus on grounds of historicity, in The reception of a Middle Egyptian poem: The Dialogue of Ipuwer.. he acknowledges that there are some textual parallels "particularly the striking statement that ‘the river is blood and one drinks from it’ (Ipuwer 2.10), and the frequent references to servants abandoning their subordinate status (e.g. Ipuwer 3.14–4.1; 6.7–8; 10.2–3). On a literal reading, these are similar to aspects of the Exodus account."[26] Commenting on such attempts to draw parallels, he writes that "all these approaches read Ipuwer hyper-literally and selectively" and points out that there are also conflicts between Ipuwer and the biblical account. He suggests that "it is more likely that Ipuwer is not a piece of historical reportage and that historicising interpretations of it fail to account for the ahistorical, schematic literary nature of some of the poem’s laments," but other Egyptologists disagree (see Genre section above). Examining what Enmarch calls "the most extensively posited parallel", the river becoming blood, he notes that it should not be taken "absolutely literally" as a description of an event but that both Ipuwer and Exodus might be metaphorically describing what happens at times of catastrophic Nile floods when the river is carrying large quantities of red earth, mentioning that Kitchen has also discussed this phenomenon.

So no its not scientific method. Its cherry picking certain lines from a poem and ignoring the ones that do not tie in with the bibles view.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but did you follow that link? If you look at the references to the Papyrus, you will see it references just about every other line. That is not cherry picking. If someone said that they cherry-picked lines from Exodus, they would be wrong; Exodus doesn't solely describe the ten plagues. Therefore, you cannot quote every other line in an argument.

(July 18, 2011 at 11:44 am)TheCarlisle Wrote: I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but did you follow that link? If you look at the references to the Papyrus, you will see it references just about every other line. That is not cherry picking. If someone said that they cherry-picked lines from Exodus, they would be wrong; Exodus doesn't solely describe the ten plagues. Therefore, you cannot quote every other line in an argument.

Of course i read it. the lines from the Ipuwer are cherry picked. what about the invading force that is written in its first stanza. ?? Which isn't in the bible ( surely if the invading force was locusts/flies/ frogs etc it would say so, seeing as its significant)


Also the Ipuwer is a work of PROSE as I wrote that in my last post. Not a factual document (not that it matters)

(July 18, 2011 at 11:31 am)thebigfudge Wrote: Remember, we are talking about 1000+ AD Egypt here. So plagues, sickness and disorder were common place. The Ipuwer is a work of prose not a factual account.

"what about the invading force that is written in its first stanza?"
The invading force... does it specify anything about the force?

"The date for the composition of this document is unknown." - I don't know how you got the 1000 AD thing.
Additionally, the similarity of the Ipuwer and Exodus is stunning. It was virtually impossible for an Egyptian to get their hands on a copy of Moses' books since duplicating was incredibly difficult, let alone locating Moses and his books, finding time to copy it, and then return to Egypt to write the Ipuwer. Furthermore, what incentive would an Egyptian have to write about an event that supports Christian religion? I find it incredibly hard to believe that one would write against their religion for money.

(July 18, 2011 at 11:57 am)TheCarlisle Wrote: "The date for the composition of this document is unknown." - I don't know how you got the 1000 AD thing.
Additionally, the similarity of the Ipuwer and Exodus is stunning. It was virtually impossible for an Egyptian to get their hands on a copy of Moses' books since duplicating was incredibly difficult, let alone locating Moses and his books, finding time to copy it, and then return to Egypt to write the Ipuwer. Furthermore, what incentive would an Egyptian have to write about an event that supports Christian religion? I find it incredibly hard to believe that one would write against their religion for money.

I agree it has a number of parallels but it also has a number of contradictions. Ipuwer has nothing to do with Christianity it is a mutually exclusive document. I alsoe misstyped when i wrote AD. should have been BC.


"The invading force... does it specify anything about the force?"
an invading force is usually the colloquial term for an army. If it was locusts of frogs or any number of beastie why didn't it say so ?

This is another example of a document which can very loosely be shown similar to the Bible used as "proof"

The document is a poem, it is a work of prose. Its origin is unknown. It could have been written in hindsight, It could be based of the same origin story of exodus, It could be based on a vision of the future, propogade tool. numerous reasons for its existance. Yet its used by some as "proof"

(July 18, 2011 at 12:07 pm)thebigfudge Wrote: I agree it has a number of parallels but it also has a number of contradictions. Ipuwer has nothing to do with Christianity it is a mutually exclusive document. I alsoe misstyped when i wrote AD. should have been BC.

Can you provide a link to the Ipuwer, I can't find any non-excerpt'd one.

ursulastange.com/courses/documents/ThePapyrusofIpuwer_000.doc

This is the whole poem not cherry picked stanza's. WHich paints a very different picture.

Since the topic has shifted from how we as skeptics see the Bible to details on whether or not the exodus from Egypt really happened, here's a fun Bible fact to consider:

When the Jews entered Egypt to live, there were seventy of them.

Quote:Exodus 1:5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.

They lived in Egypt for four generations, from Jacob's sons to Moses.

Quote:Exodus 1:1 Now these are the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt; every man and his household came with Jacob.
Exodus 1:2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah,
Exodus 6:16 And these are the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations; Gershon, and Kohath, and Merari:
Exodus 6:18 And the sons of Kohath; Amram, and Izhar, and Hebron, and Uzziel:
Exodus 6:20 And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses:

To sum up: Levi -> Kohath -> Amram -> Moses. This is four generations.

When Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt, their men numbered 600K, not counting women and children.

Quote:Exodus 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.

So assuming a 1:1 ration of men to women (generous since the male babies of Moses' generation were put to the sword), that's a population of 1.2 million.

So in four generations, the Egyptian-Jewish population went from 70 to 1.2 million in just four generations. This is a figure that only makes sense if every Jewish female from 15-40 were constantly pregnant with twins.

(July 18, 2011 at 12:22 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Since the topic has shifted from how we as skeptics see the Bible to details on whether or not the exodus from Egypt really happened, here's a fun Bible fact to consider:

When the Jews entered Egypt to live, there were seventy of them.

Quote:Exodus 1:5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already.

They lived in Egypt for four generations, from Jacob's sons to Moses.

Quote:Exodus 1:1 Now these are the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt; every man and his household came with Jacob.
Exodus 1:2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah,
Exodus 6:16 And these are the names of the sons of Levi according to their generations; Gershon, and Kohath, and Merari:
Exodus 6:18 And the sons of Kohath; Amram, and Izhar, and Hebron, and Uzziel:
Exodus 6:20 And Amram took him Jochebed his father's sister to wife; and she bare him Aaron and Moses:

To sum up: Levi -> Kohath -> Amram -> Moses. This is four generations.

When Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt, their men numbered 600K, not counting women and children.

Quote:Exodus 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.

So assuming a 1:1 ration of men to women (generous since the male babies of Moses' generation were put to the sword), that's a population of 1.2 million.

So in four generations, the Egyptian-Jewish population went from 70 to 1.2 million in just four generations. This is a figure that only makes sense if every Jewish female from 15-40 were constantly pregnant with twins.

Yes that does seem a stretch. However, there were more than just descendants of Jacob who left, there were other slaves and even Egyptians. Nowhere does it say that 600 000 Jews left Egypt.