Really why do Christians desire so much to go to Heaven? Aside from disturbing nature of God whom they always rationalize to be actually good and ignore his crimes.

I mean if you take Bible as an authority then really why would anyone in their right mind want to go there when Bible describes it as loathsome and messed up? For instance Revelation 12:7 says there was war in heaven. If a war occurs there it's not a a perfect place and if it happened before why couldn't it occur again? More over, why would anyone seek to enter a realm in which war is a possibility, when that is what nearly all people are trying to avoid? If war is possible in heaven, why wouldn't all other nefarious activities be equally plausible? After all, it would be hard to imagine a war without lying, stealing, cheating, brutality, killing, inhumanity, and all the other activities we have all grown so accustomed to in bad parts of this world.
Then it goes on in Revelation 19:14 says, The armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses. Again, we have the incongruity of war in heaven. Matthew 11:12 says, From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force. Suffering and violence in what Christian patriarch here call a perfect place?

Then in Matthew Heaven is described as place of inequality and levels of status. Read it for yourself Matthew 11:11 He that is least in the Kingdom of heaven is greater than he. or many other places Revelation 22:12 My reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be This rewarding certainly doesn't occur here, since this world is not the locale, and there is no biblical basis for an intermediate stage, such as purgatory.
Apparently it occurs in heaven. If so, does that mean some people in heaven will have six Cadillacs while others will have a Yugo?

Then Matthew 16:19 describes Heaven as a totalitarian place: I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.
How could people be bound or restrained in a perfect place of freedom? But, then again, perhaps it isn't that free?

Then Jesus says that Heaven is not going to last very long Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Heaven will pass away? Why seek a place that will eventually vanish and how can one spend eternity there? It's certainly not utopia when it is compared to leaven like in Matthew and Luke which goes The Kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. I mean if you know Bible you know leaven is used as nefarious addition, a pollutant, a corruption, and for heaven to be compared to leaven diminishes its attraction immensely. Luke 12:1 He began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy or 1 Corinthians 5:6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

Also the last nail of any credibility that Heaven can be a good place comes from a a parable in Matthew 20:1-16 that demonstrates that heaven is the antithesis of justice in action. In the parable estate owner went out and hired some workers for his field for one denarius per day. Three, six, nine, and eleven hours later he hired additional workers. Yet everyone received the same amount of money that evening. Those who worked the entire day protested. But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?' If that is heaven, Christians are pursuing the kind of environment that's all too prevalent on earth today.

Christians spend their entire lives pining for heaven, not even properly living their earthly lives to the fullest. I honestly believe they hope for early deaths, by whatever means, just to get to heaven faster. If they happen to die at the hands of another, all the better, for they believe they will then get to watch their killers suffer in hell from the safety of heaven.

Because they over look all that and just see that they can be immortal and see their loved ones again. It's a coping mechanism. I really like the movie The Invention of Lying because it literally shows how much of a coping mechanism heaven really is. How they grasp at it like life rafts because it tells them what they want to hear.

(May 31, 2017 at 4:00 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Really why do Christians desire so much to go to Heaven?

To be with God.

Quote: Aside from disturbing nature of God whom they always rationalize to be actually good and ignore his crimes.

Such as? (meaning from what authority can one subject God to a law)

Quote:I mean if you take Bible as an authority then really why would anyone in their right mind want to go there when Bible describes it as loathsome and messed up?

Because the bible describes Heaven as a pretty swell place as well. One where there is not Hell fire and gnashing of teeth.

Quote:For instance Revelation 12:7 says there was war in heaven.

Ah, no. It describes a comming war where lucifer and the demons are cast out from God and sent here effectivly making Earth Satan's domain. Why? to answer question like this and to shore up any doubt in your mind wh is indeed the greater evil. All of this so people like you can regain proper perspective.

Quote: If a war occurs there it's not a a perfect place and if it happened before why couldn't it occur again?

You do know we are not to actually live in Heaven with God right? And you do know this heaven and this earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will be our eternal 'perfect' home?

Quote:More over, why would anyone seek to enter a realm in which war is a possibility, when that is what nearly all people are trying to avoid?

They wouldn't that is what this heaven and earth s about. sifting those who would cause problems from those who want to simply live with God.

Quote: If war is possible in heaven, why wouldn't all other nefarious activities be equally plausible? After all, it would be hard to imagine a war without lying, stealing, cheating, brutality, killing, inhumanity, and all the other activities we have all grown so accustomed to in bad parts of this world.

Because in this life we are pledging to give up sin and adopt God's will as our own. In essence what you call free will (aka sin) is removed.

Then it goes on in Revelation 19:14 says, The armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses. Again, we have the incongruity of war in heaven. Matthew 11:12 says, From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence and the violent take it by force. Suffering and violence in what Christian patriarch here call a perfect place?

Then in Matthew Heaven is described as place of inequality and levels of status. Read it for yourself Matthew 11:11 He that is least in the Kingdom of heaven is greater than he. or many other places Revelation 22:12 My reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be This rewarding certainly doesn't occur here, since this world is not the locale, and there is no biblical basis for an intermediate stage, such as purgatory.
Apparently it occurs in heaven. If so, does that mean some people in heaven will have six Cadillacs while others will have a Yugo?

Then Matthew 16:19 describes Heaven as a totalitarian place: I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.
How could people be bound or restrained in a perfect place of freedom? But, then again, perhaps it isn't that free?

Then Jesus says that Heaven is not going to last very long Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Heaven will pass away? Why seek a place that will eventually vanish and how can one spend eternity there? It's certainly not utopia when it is compared to leaven like in Matthew and Luke which goes The Kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. I mean if you know Bible you know leaven is used as nefarious addition, a pollutant, a corruption, and for heaven to be compared to leaven diminishes its attraction immensely. Luke 12:1 He began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy or 1 Corinthians 5:6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?

Also the last nail of any credibility that Heaven can be a good place comes from a a parable in Matthew 20:1-16 that demonstrates that heaven is the antithesis of justice in action. In the parable estate owner went out and hired some workers for his field for one denarius per day. Three, six, nine, and eleven hours later he hired additional workers. Yet everyone received the same amount of money that evening. Those who worked the entire day protested. But he replied to one of them, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you, and go; I choose to give to this last as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?' If that is heaven, Christians are pursuing the kind of environment that's all too prevalent on earth today.
[/quote]

All these question seem to stem from a basic lack of understnding of what the book of Revelations actually says.. almost like you took or read a very biased commentary to heart and just assume all christians are as stupid as your commentary makes them out to be.

What you don't seem to get is after the reign of man/After we are dead. after the war/Armageddon Satan is locked up for 1000 years.

Then Satan is let loose one again to test those under God, then once again is allowed to putgotether another army this time made up of souls of the dead that number like sand on the sea shore.

God obliterates them and locks satan away forever. Then God initiates the final resurrection and judgement placing the righteous in the new earth/new heaven.

Chapters 20 and 21

All of your trivia goes away with a simple read through of revelation, so why not read through it yourself?

(May 31, 2017 at 9:38 am)Drich Wrote: Also the last nail of any credibility that Heaven can be a good place comes from a a parable in Matthew 20:1-16 that demonstrates that heaven is the antithesis of justice in action.

Credibility.  You guys make me laugh.

They like to believe in a romanticized version of heaven, where they get to have everything they want, and get to be with their christian loved ones. Nevermind that you would live under a dictatorship where the guy in charge values worship ore than he values what you want or don't want. He will strip away everything he doesn't like about you, leaving you a shell of your former self, that wants only what he wants you to want. 

It's one of those things that sounds nice on the surface, but the ore you think about it, the more problems pop up.

Considering some of the vile torments I have imagined for them in HELL, do we need to speculate ??


Anally birthing foul demons for SATAN for eternity would seem to be a pretty good advert for heaven . . .

.......well, unless you really like it rough.  

(May 31, 2017 at 10:13 am)Chad32 Wrote: They like to believe in a romanticized version of heaven, where they get to have everything they want, and get to be with their christian loved ones. Nevermind that you would live under a dictatorship where the guy in charge values worship ore than he values what you want or don't want. He will strip away everything he doesn't like about you, leaving you a shell of your former self, that wants only what he wants you to want. 

It's one of those things that sounds nice on the surface, but the ore you think about it, the more problems pop up.

DLC you are describing is expensive as hell. I admire a bit those desperate people who sing up for such things.

Maybe because the alternative is really really unpleasant :-)