(June 26, 2017 at 1:29 pm)Pandæmonium Wrote:

This is why Windows, since Vista, requires ADMIN access!

(June 26, 2017 at 1:13 pm)Lek Wrote: The message of the Holy Spirit is always true.  Individuals who perform evil in the name of the Holy Spirit are not following him.  Do some people commit evil in the name of God?  Sure.  People commit evil in the name of many things and may even think they're doing the right thing.  We should always check our desires against scripture.  In the case of burning witches, the bible doesn't condone it.  It may have been commanded to the old testament Israelites, but not to us.  God's covenant with Moses had it's purposes and his covenant with his followers after the cross has it's purposes.

So god changed his mind? Or he was...wr-wr-wr-wrong?!!

Y'know, it'd be easier to take this seriously if you didn't have an entire book in there where god royally fucks with a truly devoted guy just for yuks. How can we not look at ourselves like meaningless little playthings for a vindictive child-minded overlord in that worldview?

(June 26, 2017 at 12:51 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 12:09 pm)SteveII Wrote: 1. I hesitate to respond because I really don't really care for your version of a discussion, but I will give it a shot...
2. It's really hard to give you verse or two because it is the entire conclusion of the NT that it is the final revelation of God. After 2000 years of promising, God himself, in the person of Jesus, came to earth to pay our penalty in order to bridge the gap back to God so that we can have a relationship with him now and forever. Following the acceptance of the proffered gift, it is complete with instructions on how to conduct oneself. The next thing to expect is the second coming of Jesus. The exclusivity claims and exhaustive nature of the message is present in almost every chapter of the NT. 
3. If you want to argue about conclusions of Christian teachings, you have to start with correctly understanding what those teaching are. I don't really care if you believe them or not. NT Christianity could never be construed to burn witches...period.
4. One of the responsibilities of the Holy Spirit is to make sure God's message is conveyed clearly and unmistakably and therefore that is why the NT is complete in it's description of the human condition, remedy for that condition, and guidance on how to conduct ourselves. If one chooses not to read it, who's fault is that?

Nothing in the NT nullifies the killing of witches. In fact, Jesus says...

Matthew 5:18 Wrote:For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I'm not texting from an alternate universe, so apparently heaven and earth haven't passed yet. This thing about witches seems to be one of those little jots and tittles that some Christians wish would pass.

That verse does not mean what you think it means. 

Quote:Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

It is clearer in context with the surrounding chapters (5-7) and has a different meaning to a person raised in Judaism (the original audience) than to one that was not.  In light of the previous verses, Jesus was assuring them their sacred Law still had value. The word 'fulfill' in verse 17 does not mean perpetuate, it means complete. But to understand what that means, you then have to understand the purpose of the Law. Jesus was teaching in these three chapters that the law was impossible to fully follow so in fact, no one was righteous. To illustrate that even more, he went on to expand the laws throughout the rest of the chapter 5--further illustrating that it is impossible to live up to the spirit of the law, let alone the letter of it--and therefore cannot ever be the means of salvation. This fits in perfectly with the message that Jesus claimed to be the only means of salvation.

We have to understand that:

1. No one (except for Jesus) has ever succeeded in keeping the law (Acts 15:10)!
   
2. The law was delivered to Israel - One nation of people (Exodus 20:1-2; Deuteronomy 4:1-2).
   
3. It is One Law containing the whole package of rituals and sacrifices as well as the Ten Commandments (Galatians 3:10-11; Galatians 5:3)
   
4. The law cannot bring salvation (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:8-10, 16; Galatians 3:1-5).
   
5. As Paul makes clear, the law's job was to act as a schoolmaster in order to bring us to Christ (Galatians 4:1-7).
   

You also have to ask the meaning of the phrase at the end of verse 18. It is clear in the larger context that this as the purpose for which Jesus came--the sacrifice was made to make it possible to bridge the gap back to God--providing a new (and better) way to God and the only means of salvation--which the law failed to do. 

Here is a good (thorough) article on this issue: http://www.ukapologetics.net/Jesusandthelaw.html

You also have to understand that the 1st century Christians (of which there were at least a half dozen major sects) all believed the Earth to be flat; that's why the Roman intelligentsia ignored them.

(June 26, 2017 at 12:28 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 12:10 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: And the Holy Spirit apparently didn't control what was written in the bible. Exodus 22:18.

Again, how do you know that you are being led by god if belief is no guarantee that you are?

You are taking a command written to the Jewish people living under a theocracy thousands of years ago and trying to apply it to people that it was not directed toward not in the setting that it was written in. 

One way of knowing that you are NOT led by God is if the action is contrary to the teachings found in the NT. Can you think of any historical atrocity that would not have been avoided if that were followed?

So if god lied to the Jews, making them believe there are witches, I should brush it off because he wasn't talking to me. Or maybe you think the god of the oT is not the god of the NT.

A man came to Jesus asking healing for his sick slave. Rather than upbraiding the man for being a slave owner, Jesus praised him as having mire faith than he had ever seen. In the 19th century 120 pastors surveyed agreed unanimously there is nothing in the bible that speaks against slavery.

But many atrocities could have been avoided if people followed the precepts of Ma'at or Iwa Pele or the Instructions of Ptah or the Emerald Tablets of Thoth or...

(June 26, 2017 at 1:32 pm)vorlon13 Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 1:13 pm)Lek Wrote: The message of the Holy Spirit is always true.  . . . . . 

GA 6:2 Bear one another's burdens.

GA 6:5 Bear your own burden.



Indeed.

Give me a break Vorion. We bear our own burdens and we bear others burdens as well.

(June 26, 2017 at 1:49 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 12:28 pm)SteveII Wrote: You are taking a command written to the Jewish people living under a theocracy thousands of years ago and trying to apply it to people that it was not directed toward not in the setting that it was written in. 

One way of knowing that you are NOT led by God is if the action is contrary to the teachings found in the NT. Can you think of any historical atrocity that would not have been avoided if that were followed?

So if god lied to the Jews, making them believe there are witches, I should brush it off because he wasn't talking to me. Or maybe you think the god of the oT is not the god of the NT.

A man came to Jesus asking healing for his sick slave. Rather than upbraiding the man for being a slave owner, Jesus praised him as having mire faith than he had ever seen. In the 19th century 120 pastors surveyed agreed unanimously there is nothing in the bible that speaks against slavery.

But many atrocities could have been avoided if people followed the precepts of Ma'at or Iwa Pele or the Instructions of Ptah or the Emerald Tablets of Thoth or...

Wait, wait. I never meant to imply there were no witches. There are people still today that pursue contact with evil spirits, sicko rituals, and such so I imagine there were similar things back then. 

Read Philemon--Paul definitely was against the idea of slavery back in the day (which was much tamer than modern slavery). Your example proves my point that if slave owners followed verses like those found here: https://dailyverses.net/neighbor the institution would have not ever have begun. 

But your own question was about how do we know what the holy spirit wants us to do, and I answered it is fairly easy to know what he does not want us to do (examine the NT). Christians don't have a monopoly on being moral.

(June 26, 2017 at 1:34 pm)Astonished Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 1:13 pm)Lek Wrote: The message of the Holy Spirit is always true.  Individuals who perform evil in the name of the Holy Spirit are not following him.  Do some people commit evil in the name of God?  Sure.  People commit evil in the name of many things and may even think they're doing the right thing.  We should always check our desires against scripture.  In the case of burning witches, the bible doesn't condone it.  It may have been commanded to the old testament Israelites, but not to us.  God's covenant with Moses had it's purposes and his covenant with his followers after the cross has it's purposes.

So god changed his mind? Or he was...wr-wr-wr-wrong?!!

Y'know, it'd be easier to take this seriously if you didn't have an entire book in there where god royally fucks with a truly devoted guy just for yuks. How can we not look at ourselves like meaningless little playthings for a vindictive child-minded overlord in that worldview?

No. He didn't change his mind. He had a purpose for doing what he did under the old covenant and for what he did under the new covenant. And he did mess with poor Job, but how did Job come out in the whole scheme of things? Based on your ideas of eternity, you'll come away with entirely different interpretations of God actions and motives. God did act wrathfully with people before Christ. That's what Jesus took upon himself for us on the cross.

(June 26, 2017 at 2:09 pm)Lek Wrote:

(June 26, 2017 at 1:34 pm)Astonished Wrote: So god changed his mind? Or he was...wr-wr-wr-wrong?!!

Y'know, it'd be easier to take this seriously if you didn't have an entire book in there where god royally fucks with a truly devoted guy just for yuks. How can we not look at ourselves like meaningless little playthings for a vindictive child-minded overlord in that worldview?

No.  He didn't change his mind.  He had a purpose for doing what he did under the old covenant and for what he did under the new covenant.  And he did mess with poor Job, but how did Job come out in the whole scheme of things?  Based on your ideas of eternity, you'll come away with entirely different interpretations of God actions and motives.  God did act wrathfully with people before Christ.  That's what Jesus took upon himself for us on the cross.

Uh, apparently he did. You don't get to change definitions because it suits you. And are you seriously trying to justify what he did to Job? The fact that he doesn't give a half a fuck about informed consent tells you how little he regards us, and how primitive the whole damn premise is. "Hey, Joby-Job! My man! What's shaking, dawg? Listen, I'm an insecure dickhole and I want to prove to yet another one of my creations that didn't quite pan out the way I intended even though I have full control over how I construct them, that if I do some really sick, twisted, me-awful shit to you, you'll still not only believe in me, but continue praising me for my glory. Well, I mean, like, I'll have your property destroyed, I'll have some thugs come in and butcher all your relatives and servants and livestock, and...oh, no, ha ha, I'm not even close to done yet, bro, listen to this: I'm going to make you sick as fuck and writhe in pain from sores and boils all over your body. Yeah, I know, sounds fucked as hell, dunnit? But I'm gonna do it anyway, and all I need is your go-ahead. What do you get in return? Hey, fuck you, man, I don't owe you shit. Well, I guess fair's fair though, so I'll replace everything you lost and then some, 'kay? So whaddaya say, sport?" Tell me a story about a god who offers Job this chance to decline torment and you'll have created a god superior to the one you currently believe in. I hope you're proud of yourself.

In this way, we have way, way more misplaced faith in that prick than he has in us and it's hard to figure out why no one's caught on to that. And it's a shame about those poor fucks who died in the flood since god wasn't ready to say, you know what, fuck it, I'll forgive them, except I have to show them how much I hate them first by burning one of them in effigy to expiate all those sins I programmed into them but blame on them, but since I'm such a nice guy who would never do anything to a guy like Job (LOL, j/k) I'll make myself into one of them for a bit and suffer it even though hundreds of people get crucified and my bad weekend ain't that damn impressive. That'll show me how cool I am. Me! Me! Me! Whoo! Oh, wait, they didn't burn my human body...I like the smell of charred human flesh...well, that was a waste. Meh, might as well completely reverse the whole idea of dying and bring myself back to life before I yank it back up here.

I mean, have you seriously never considered how fucked up the whole Jesus thing is? God creates us this way and yet condemns us for his own fuck-up, torments us for centuries in one way or another until he gets the bright idea to perform a completely unnecessary act of barbaric human sacrifice, which he could have chosen simply not to do and forgiven us (and admitted his own abominable and unpardonable wrongdoing) for something which isn't even our fault in the first place, and hell, even delivered clearly and without a shred of ambiguity a message he wished to convey. This is the most vile, inept version of a god I've ever fucking heard of, and yet it's the most popular mainstream flavor on earth.

To quote Richard Dawkins on this wretched lunacy: Barking mad.

(June 26, 2017 at 1:13 pm)Lek Wrote: The message of the Holy Spirit is always true.  Individuals who perform evil in the name of the Holy Spirit are not following him.  Do some people commit evil in the name of God?  Sure.  People commit evil in the name of many things and may even think they're doing the right thing.  We should always check our desires against scripture.  In the case of burning witches, the bible doesn't condone it.  It may have been commanded to the old testament Israelites, but not to us.  God's covenant with Moses had it's purposes and his covenant with his followers after the cross has it's purposes.

"There are literally thousands of sects of my religion all interpreting the holy book differently but that one is wrong..."

Classic.