(August 11, 2017 at 9:42 am)Brian37 Wrote:

(August 11, 2017 at 9:31 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: He may be a brat, but he is not controlled by china.  If he was, he wouldn't have nuclear weapons.   But he is still valuable to china.   It's not just the Chinese don't want millions of refugees.   That's just a face saving excuse for propping up a despotic regime in the name of humanitarianism.    The fear of flood of refugees is not completely fictitious.  But china could easily seal the border.

The real reason even a recalcitrant North Korea is valuable to china is simply it saves china the expense and bad publicity of occupying party of Korea while still securely keeping the Americans far away.

Bullshit. 

If he was not being controlled by China, then why did they vote with us for more sanctions?

The Kim family is not interested in a war. Again, they are only interested in keeping power. The have been bluffing for decades.

And again, nobody has offered me anything new here that Obama, Bush Jr, Bill Clinton, Bush Sr, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, JFK ect have all also had to deal with North Korea.

If you are foolish enough to think 45 can do any better, sorry, no polite way to put it, you are playing with fire and supporting a dangerous madman.

We knock the Kim family out China is going to compete to fill that void we create, which will cause us to go to war with China.

Now, unless 45 can make some deal with them then it is pointless and dangerous to bust NK up.

If he was being controlled by china, then china wouldn't need to get into a situation where they have to vote with the US to ambargo it.

North Korean nuclear capability encourages the development of countermeasures by Japan and the US that necessarily also degrade the effectiveness of China's own nuclear arsenal.

If china had any decisive influence in North Korea, North Korea would never be allowed to develop nuclear weapons.  North Korean nuclear weapons weakens china relative to the US.   BUT, North Korean nuclear weapons do not weaken china as much as a complete collapse of North Korea would weaken china.   This is why china would continue to prop up North Korea even though North Korea substantially harmed China's position in the world.

(August 11, 2017 at 9:48 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:

(August 11, 2017 at 9:42 am)Brian37 Wrote: Bullshit. 

If he was not being controlled by China, then why did they vote with us for more sanctions?

The Kim family is not interested in a war. Again, they are only interested in keeping power. The have been bluffing for decades.

And again, nobody has offered me anything new here that Obama, Bush Jr, Bill Clinton, Bush Sr, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, JFK ect have all also had to deal with North Korea.

If you are foolish enough to think 45 can do any better, sorry, no polite way to put it, you are playing with fire and supporting a dangerous madman.

We knock the Kim family out China is going to compete to fill that void we create, which will cause us to go to war with China.

Now, unless 45 can make some deal with them then it is pointless and dangerous to bust NK up.

If he was being controlled by china, then china wouldn't need to get into a situation where they have to vote with the US to ambargo it.

North Korean nuclear capability encourages the development of countermeasures by Japan and the US that necessarily also degrade the effectiveness of China's own nuclear arsenal.

If china had any decisive influence in North Korea, North Korea would never be allowed to develop nuclear weapons.  North Korean nuclear weapons weakens china relative to the US.   BUT, North Korean nuclear weapons do not weaken china as much as a complete collapse of North Korea would weaken china.   This is why china would continue to prop up North Korea even though North Korea substantially harmed China's position in the world.

I don't care. I am talking about the risk now.

It is insane to risk a war with China regardless of your opinion here now. 

We knock out Un, China is going to try to fill that power vacuum and don't tell me 45 would be diplomatic about it. 

And again, nobody in this thread has offered up anything new that prior presidents for the past 50 years haven't figured out.

The only way a war with NK would work if we made a deal with China BEFORE we do anything.

45 wont do that so all you are doing is risking WW3.

There is nothing we can afford to give up that china would think is adaquate compensation for their giving up North Korea.   That being said, if we launch surgical strikes against North Korea, or really bomb the stuffing out of North Korea, as in the case of retaliation against their strike against Guam, The Chinese won't shoot at us.

They don't mind if we take out North Korean nukes so long as Kim's government survives.

If North Korea invade South Korea in retaliation and it turns into a land war, where it is all or nothing for Kim, and losing mean South Korea/the IS topple Kim's regime, then they will get directly involved.

---

Read a detailed account of the behind the scene diplomatic maneuvers between the US, United Nations and china in 1950 leading up to the Chinese involvement in the Korean War.  It is very instructive.  The Chinese don't mind their buffer state gets a bloody nose. Particularly if the buffer state is engaged in actions they didn't approve. But they do mind if the buffer state is in danger of collapse, or American forces approach Chinese border.

Chinese interest relative to the Korean Peninsula has not changed significantly.   The only difference is back then, their only option to get involved was to fight a ground war against the US in Korea.

Now they can fight a multi-faceted struggle against many dimensions of American interest at many different locations at once. They can directly attack American allies throughout west pacific by air and by sea, they can engage us by air and land in Korea. They can attack our space assets, they can wage economic and resource warfare against us. Ultimately they can retaliate against us with nuclear weapons that work.

(August 11, 2017 at 10:26 am)Anomalocaris Wrote: There is nothing we can afford to give up that china would think is adaquate compensation for their giving up North Korea.   That being said, if we launch surgical strikes against North Korea, or really bomb the stuffing out of North Korea, as in the case of retaliation against their strike against Guam, The Chinese won't shoot at us.

They don't mind if we take out North Korean nukes so long as Kim's government survives.

If North Korea invade South Korea in retaliation and it turns into a land war, where it is all or nothing for Kim, and losing mean South Korea/the IS topple Kim's regime, then they will get directly involved.

Sounds nice but get that in writing first. I think you are living in a utopia. 45 doesn't simply want to take out nukes.

And again, as soon as we fire, NK WILL fire any other weapons at south Korea and that WILL start a ground war.

NK has countless short range rockets and tanks and jets they can use against SK. 

You are delusional if you think we take out just the nukes that wont trigger a ground war.

Just saw on the news that China will remain neutral unless the U.S. attacks North Korea first. Australia, also around that neighborhood, weighed in as well with Great Britain, that both will stand shoulder to shoulder with the U.S. . Japan and South Korea also issued warnings of their own. All of these countries are not ignoring the threat that NOKO is presenting. President Trump issued yet another warning and said that he was going to wait and see what North Korea does in Guam next week. I wouldn't be surprised if Kimmy ends up dead some how of an assassination plot that was designed by China and others of the NOKO inner circle with Kim. That way they'd be rid of their liability and would have installed another North Korean ruler that they can control.

(August 8, 2017 at 3:27 pm)LastPoet Wrote: No doubt the US could flatten NK with nukes. Neighbours wouldn't be too happy.

I like South Korea. The're cool.

I really hope that the nuclear strike on Hiroshima becomes both the first and last nuke ever. All countries should learn from what happened there.

I also think it should be especially mandatory to learn about Hiroshima in schools.

In fact I think it's a history lesson even more important than what Hitler did.

(August 11, 2017 at 11:01 am)A Theist Wrote: Just saw on the news that China will remain neutral unless the U.S. attacks North Korea first. Australia, also around that neighborhood, weighed in as well with Great Britain, that both will stand shoulder to shoulder with the U.S. . Japan and South Korea also issued warnings of their own. All of these countries are not ignoring the threat that NOKO is presenting. President Trump issued yet another warning and said that he was going to wait and see what North Korea does in Guam next week. I wouldn't be surprised if Kimmy ends up dead some how of an assassination plot that was designed by China and others of the NOKO inner circle with Kim. That way they'd be rid of their liability and would have installed another North Korean ruler that they can control.

Of course our allies will back us up, STILL NOT THE FUCKING POINT.

We knock out their nukes FINE. Even if they fire first, FINE, NK will still cause plenty of damage to South Korea and start a ground war. 

You are living a delusion. China may be saying that now, but if a ground war starts do you really trust them not to get involved?

Outside lip service what assurances EVEN IF NK fires first do we have from China if a ground war starts?

You have to take that into account as well.

NRA wants NK to bomb California instead of Guam.  Such fine 'murricans these gun nut scumbags.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/nra-tv-h...d-of-guam/

Quote:NRA TV host openly roots for North Korea to nuke California instead of Guam

(August 11, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Minimalist Wrote: NRA wants NK to bomb California instead of Guam.  Such fine 'murricans these gun nut scumbags.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/nra-tv-h...d-of-guam/

Quote:NRA TV host openly roots for North Korea to nuke California instead of Guam

Yep, just like ISIS they love weapons and death.

(August 11, 2017 at 1:10 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(August 11, 2017 at 12:54 pm)Minimalist Wrote: NRA wants NK to bomb California instead of Guam.  Such fine 'murricans these gun nut scumbags.

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/08/nra-tv-h...d-of-guam/

Yep, just like ISIS they love weapons and death.

 Judging all those who belong to the NRA, just like you say Christians judge atheist.

  GC