(August 14, 2017 at 4:01 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(August 14, 2017 at 3:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Well, I was mostly referring to when you said this: "At the cultural level I believe that atheism is a corrosive and undermines the core values of Western civilization such as human dignity,  civil rights, aesthetic hierarchies."

I see it as a blanket statement because there are a lot of atheists who are humanists and who value human life, believe in human rights, and do good things for their communities through charity and volunteering.

My statement was about atheism as an intellectual position and cultural phenomenon. It is critique of ideas and says nothing about the character of any individual atheist.

Ok. I guess I misunderstood.

(August 14, 2017 at 3:02 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(August 13, 2017 at 1:33 am)emjay Wrote: By nihilism, you mean the view that life is meaningless? I guess I am a bit of a nihilist... evolution has no goal... we're here because we can be, nothing more. But that doesn't change the fact that we are here and everyone, theist and atheist alike, have their own crosses to bear, challenges to overcome, moral decisions to make... everyone has a conscience... everyone has empathy for others. Are you saying it's all rendered moot... being human regardless of how we came to be human... if our 'worth'/'purpose' cannot be rationally justified in dry philosophy... ie if we come to a nihilistic conclusion?

By corroding human dignity do you mean in this nihilistic sense (as in the view that I have... that we're ultimately just biochemical machines, our reactions governed by the clockwork universe) or do you mean in a more Biblical sense where humans are placed at the centre of the universe, better than, and with dominion over, all other forms of life?

As for civil rights, what do you mean by civil rights? Everyone fights for civil rights, where they see injustice... that's not the preserve of religion. And where atheism is concerned, that fight is based on principles of fairness to all, equality, and empathy for others, unfettered by the prejudices and conformity of religion.

Finally, as for 'aesthetic hierarchies', I have no idea what that means

Thanks for your considered response, Emjay. I was only offering my most basic opinions. I'm encouraged that nearly all the members of AF profess concern about the Western values necessary for liberal democratic societies. At the same time, believing in those values is not the same as have having reasons to hold them. A theist saying that we have those values because people are "Created in the image of God. Full stop" is reflexive and unenlightening. I honestly do not know how an atheist intellectual rationally grounds the notion of human rights etc. beyond cultural preference. Personally, I think it would be wonderful if that were indeed possible. It would bridge one more divide in our society. If I can find the time, I would like to give you a more complete answer, maybe on its own thread. But it's kind of hard to find the motivation to do so since my posts seem to generate an inordinate amount of hostility.

What's wrong with having empathy as the rational grounds for the notion of human rights from an atheistic perspective? It's perfectly logical and it requires no appeal to anything beyond what we experience directly in our own minds; we each know what it is to suffer... we each can imagine what it is for someone else to suffer... we each find that unpleasant... so we each want to reduce potential suffering in the world. In fact, that's where I think it all derives... from human empathy... but in the case of religion it is misattributed to God. Take adultery for instance; the empathetic reason not to commit adultery is because we all know what trust is, and what it is like to lose it and feel betrayed... and don't want to put that on anyone else. But adultery is also a commandment in the Bible... why? Is it for the benefit of man (ie God having empathy for man and the suffering he may endure) or only God?

Whether you believe in God or not, if you can take the leap that human morals derive from empathy, then whether written by man... as atheism contends... or by God... as theists contend... either way the commandments in the Bible represent the extent of one person (God included) or group's empathetic thinking, in the form of moral laws; ie those laws exist to reduce suffering in the world. From that perspective, the problem with religion, as opposed to atheism, is that those laws are set in stone... unchanging forever... and as such they are necessarily limited... they cannot evolve or expand to uncover other, or new forms of suffering and tackle them accordingly. For instance the ethics of informed consent; that deals with a type of potential suffering that was not dealt with in the Bible (to my knowledge)... so it's only through continually expanding the direction and focus of empathy that moral progress can be, and has been, made; something that cannot happen if you are confined, for your moral imperatives, to a fixed set of unchanging and unchangeable rules, as is the case with religion.

I'd say that those who are 'good' because they believe in God are actually the ones doing it for the wrong reasons. They're doing it for a 'reward' or to avoid punishment. That isn't morality. The true test of a person is what they do when nobody is looking, and one can't get that measure because 'god' is believed to always be looking.

To echo emjay, empathy is the driving force of my morality. And not in the abstract. I was born physically disabled. I've had 45 surgeries to date, most of them osteotomies (which are very painful), in order to have what physical ability I currently enjoy. It's not an exaggeration when I say that I've been in the hospital during important moments like holidays and birthdays. It's also not an exaggeration to say that I feel some kind of physical pain every day (pressure sores suck). I've also suffered a bit from depression, thinking that I'm useless and worthless and perhaps that everyone else would be better off if I wasn't around.

And it's because of those experiences that I try my best to make sure others don't have to experience them, or something like them. It's why I donate to The Jimmy Fund and Doctors Without Borders and Child's Play. It's why I favor universal healthcare. It's why I take a hard stance against people who take action without another's consent (as a disabled person, I'm painfully aware of my own vulnerability and helplessness). And a whole bunch of other things.

I believe in helping humanity because I've suffered as a human. More than some, not as much as others, but suffered nonetheless. And I'd like to help usher in a day when that doesn't happen any longer.

So more of Wooters panicky apologist scare mongering . That the world ends if his magical pretensions  are not dominant . It sounds every bit as cartoonish as this.

I told a saturday morning mormon I was an atheist and he did that backstepping thing you see in the movies lol. So yes, definitely.

(August 14, 2017 at 10:41 pm)Heisenberg Wrote: I told a saturday morning mormon I was an atheist and he did that backstepping thing you see in the movies lol. So yes, definitely.

Yup. When they're told we're satan's little helpers all their lives, of course we all sprout horns and turn red the moment they realize we didn't fall for their scam.

(August 14, 2017 at 3:02 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Isn't it natural for a Christian to feel sad that some people will never know Christ? Isn't that preferable to indifference?

Give me the indifference and spare me the crocodile tears, thanks.

(August 14, 2017 at 5:55 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: To echo emjay, empathy is the driving force of my morality.  And not in the abstract.  I was born physically disabled.  I've had 45 surgeries to date, most of them osteotomies (which are very painful), in order to have what physical ability I currently enjoy.  It's not an exaggeration when I say that I've been in the hospital during important moments like holidays and birthdays.  It's also not an exaggeration to say that I feel some kind of physical pain every day (pressure sores suck).  I've also suffered a bit from depression, thinking that I'm useless and worthless and perhaps that everyone else would be better off if I wasn't around.

And it's because of those experiences that I try my best to make sure others don't have to experience them, or something like them.  It's why I donate to The Jimmy Fund and Doctors Without Borders and Child's Play.  It's why I favor universal healthcare.  It's why I take a hard stance against people who take action without another's consent (as a disabled person, I'm painfully aware of my own vulnerability and helplessness).  And a whole bunch of other things.

I believe in helping humanity because I've suffered as a human.  More than some, not as much as others, but suffered nonetheless.  And I'd like to help usher in a day when that doesn't happen any longer.

I'm sorry that you had to suffer, glad that you're so willing to help others! 

(August 12, 2017 at 5:56 am)Die Atheistin Wrote: ..Are some theists afraid of atheists?..

Well I'm afraid of women and the police, but afraid of atheists?- Nah..
It's just that atheists have let themselves be put off Jesus by the false crackpots of Organised Religion, and true christians want to help them see that Jesus really ROCKS!
I mean, Jesus told the snooty priests that they were full of shit and that prostitutes were better than them, so what on earth is there to dislike about the guy?