(August 31, 2017 at 11:36 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: A lot of folks are talking about worship and how they see that as an ego thing and how that turns them off. On the surface level, I can see how you guys feel that way. 

But I think perhaps you're seeing it in a way that isn't as it was intended. Or at least in a way that is completely different from how I see it. To worship means to have reverence and adoration for, right? Now, if there was a God who was literally the embodiment of love and goodness itself, wouldn't it make sense to adore those things? To bow down before them, give yourself over to them, put them above all else? 

I already know someone who's the embodiment of love and goodness, on both counts she far exceeds your god by any description.  I still don't bow before her, give myself over to her, or put her above all else.......and it;s not excactly like this is an accurate description of your god worship anyway.

You conveniently ignore the nasty shit in your appraisal of god, and then conveniently ignore further nasty shit in your worship thereof.

Quote:The way I see it, since my belief in God is that He is love and goodness, worshiping Him isn't just about praying and going to church. Though those things are definitely a supplemental/important part of it, in isolation by themselves they aren't true adoration for love and goodness. That part of it get's put into action by how we treat the people and the world around us. We can't really adore goodness and love if we don't strive for those things, make them a main focus of life, and act act accordingly. 

You must have a novel definition of "love and goodness".  Meanwhile, I';m perfectly capable of adoring goodness and love..and striving for both, making them a focus of my life and acting accordingly in the absence of your god.  To be frank, your variant of god belief would be an obstacle to each and every one of those things.

Quote:So it's not that God *needs* us to worship Him as part of some ego boost thing. It's that He *wants* us to worship Him because He made us for love and knows true happiness and fulfillment will come from embracing it and knowing it as fully as possible. And part of that comes from knowing and adoring Him, whom is Himself love. 

-and some parents make children in a bid to keep their spouses.  I;m not sure how this should inform the child as to how to live it;s life - nor does it confer any duty on the child to fulfill the woeful intended purpose.  If some god wants me to love him..then he should at least -try- to be lovable.  I'm pretty easy, he wouldn't have to try very hard.  Presuming he made me for love, he already knows this.

Quote:I know yall don't believe any of that, but I wanted to clarify the whole worship thing as I see it and was taught it.

It doesn't matter whether or not a person believes in any of it, if it were true...it would still be ridiculous. An inept and lonely god who wishes me to ignore his faults in order to love him...but who won;t do the simplest of things that so many other people have done in order to induce my love in spite of or even because of their many faults. Your god sounds like an emotionally stunted child, who yearns for even lesser versions of himself to praise him specifically for being stunted.

(August 31, 2017 at 11:36 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: A lot of folks are talking about worship and how they see that as an ego thing and how that turns them off. On the surface level, I can see how you guys feel that way. 

But I think perhaps you're seeing it in a way that isn't as it was intended. Or at least in a way that is completely different from how I see it. To worship means to have reverence and adoration for, right? Now, if there was a God who was literally the embodiment of love and goodness itself, wouldn't it make sense to adore those things? To bow down before them, give yourself over to them, put them above all else? 

The way I see it, since my belief in God is that He is love and goodness, worshiping Him isn't just about praying and going to church. Though those things are definitely a supplemental/important part of it, in isolation by themselves they aren't true adoration for love and goodness. That part of it get's put into action by how we treat the people and the world around us. We can't really adore goodness and love if we don't strive for those things, make them a main focus of life, and act act accordingly. 

So it's not that God *needs* us to worship Him as part of some ego boost thing. It's that He *wants* us to worship Him because He made us for love and knows true happiness and fulfillment will come from embracing it and knowing it as fully as possible. And part of that comes from knowing and adoring Him, whom is Himself love. 

I know yall don't believe any of that, but I wanted to clarify the whole worship thing as I see it and was taught it.

I don't think so.  Under what circumstances would you want another being -let alone one in your image- to do what I've  bolded?  Just the opposite, when I'm addressing someone who is developmentally disabled or just a lot younger, I emphasize what we have in common.  But if for any reason someone did react in that way, I'd be embarrassed and would not welcome it.

(August 31, 2017 at 11:36 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The way I see it, since my belief in God is that He is love and goodness

This makes no sense to me because by saying things like "God is love" you're saying that God is an emotion.  Why should I worship an emotion?

It equally makes no sense to be to say "God is goodness" because that would mean that God is a subjective concept.  Why should I worship a subjective concept?  I understand that you probably don't see the concept of goodness as subjective, you probably think that there is some objective goodness that God... is... but by stating such you are then burdened with having to demonstrate that this goodness you think God is really is objective, and simply stating that "that's how I was raised/taught/what I believe," as I think you already know, isn't going to convince any of the atheists in this forum...

So we're left with:

Why should I worship an emotion?
Why should I worship a concept (whether it's subjective or objective)?

I can agree that things like love and goodness are ideals worth striving for in the same way that I think equality and justice are ideals worth striving for, but I don't need a god to embody any of these things for me to think they're worthwhile, I only need compassion and empathy.

(August 31, 2017 at 2:35 pm)Clueless Morgan Wrote:

(August 31, 2017 at 11:36 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The way I see it, since my belief in God is that He is love and goodness

This makes no sense to me because by saying things like "God is love" you're saying that God is an emotion.  Why should I worship an emotion?

It equally makes no sense to be to say "God is goodness" because that would mean that God is a subjective concept.  Why should I worship a subjective concept?  I understand that you probably don't see the concept of goodness as subjective, you probably think that there is some objective goodness that God... is... but by stating such you are then burdened with having to demonstrate that this goodness you think God is really is objective, and simply stating that "that's how I was raised/taught/what I believe," as I think you already know, isn't going to convince any of the atheists in this forum...

So we're left with:

Why should I worship an emotion?
Why should I worship a concept (whether it's subjective or objective)?

I can agree that things like love and goodness are ideals worth striving for in the same way that I think equality and justice are ideals worth striving for, but I don't need a god to embody any of these things for me to think they're worthwhile, I only need compassion and empathy.

Hate to see you two fight like this.  After you hash it out I hope you can just scissor and make up.

(August 31, 2017 at 1:22 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(August 31, 2017 at 11:36 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: A lot of folks are talking about worship and how they see that as an ego thing and how that turns them off. On the surface level, I can see how you guys feel that way. 

But I think perhaps you're seeing it in a way that isn't as it was intended. Or at least in a way that is completely different from how I see it. To worship means to have reverence and adoration for, right? Now, if there was a God who was literally the embodiment of love and goodness itself, wouldn't it make sense to adore those things? To bow down before them, give yourself over to them, put them above all else? 

The way I see it, since my belief in God is that He is love and goodness, worshiping Him isn't just about praying and going to church. Though those things are definitely a supplemental/important part of it, in isolation by themselves they aren't true adoration for love and goodness. That part of it get's put into action by how we treat the people and the world around us. We can't really adore goodness and love if we don't strive for those things, make them a main focus of life, and act act accordingly. 

So it's not that God *needs* us to worship Him as part of some ego boost thing. It's that He *wants* us to worship Him because He made us for love and knows true happiness and fulfillment will come from embracing it and knowing it as fully as possible. And part of that comes from knowing and adoring Him, whom is Himself love. 

I know yall don't believe any of that, but I wanted to clarify the whole worship thing as I see it and was taught it.

I don't think so.  Under what circumstances would you want another being -let alone one in your image- to do what I've  bolded?  Just the opposite, when I'm addressing someone who is developmentally disabled or just a lot younger, I emphasize what we have in common.  But if for any reason someone did react in that way, I'd be embarrassed and would not welcome it.

When I say "To bow down before them, give yourself over to them, put them above all else", the them I was referring to was love and goodness. Since I believe God to be the embodiment of that, that's how it gets tied in.

We may just have discovered something over which we'll just have to agree to disagree.

You can keep the kids.

Worshiping is just a man made idea. But of course, if there is a god, he/she/it will get blamed for most of the ideas and problems man created for themselves. As if god is suppose to be a babysitter. Making sure you play fair and that your life is flowers and roses.

(August 31, 2017 at 3:42 pm)Whateverist Wrote: We may just have discovered something over which we'll just have to agree to disagree.  

You can keep the kids.  

You can keep the kids; I'll take the pets.

(August 31, 2017 at 2:35 pm)Clueless Morgan Wrote:

(August 31, 2017 at 11:36 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: The way I see it, since my belief in God is that He is love and goodness

This makes no sense to me because by saying things like "God is love" you're saying that God is an emotion.  Why should I worship an emotion?

It equally makes no sense to be to say "God is goodness" because that would mean that God is a subjective concept.  Why should I worship a subjective concept?  I understand that you probably don't see the concept of goodness as subjective, you probably think that there is some objective goodness that God... is... but by stating such you are then burdened with having to demonstrate that this goodness you think God is really is objective, and simply stating that "that's how I was raised/taught/what I believe," as I think you already know, isn't going to convince any of the atheists in this forum...

So we're left with:

Why should I worship an emotion?
Why should I worship a concept (whether it's subjective or objective)?

I can agree that things like love and goodness are ideals worth striving for in the same way that I think equality and justice are ideals worth striving for, but I don't need a god to embody any of these things for me to think they're worthwhile, I only need compassion and empathy.

I wasn't really referring to the emotional love, aka the warm fuzzy feelings. Choosing to do good for others, doing for them what they want done to you, selflessness, etc, are all representations of love, and they are independent of having strong feelings.  

Cliche verses, I know, but I think these 2 verses define love pretty well:

"Love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth."

"Do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you. Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. Do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return."

As for goodness, you are right that it can be subjective depending on what we're talking about. I think mushrooms are good, my husband thinks they are very bad. I think warm weather is good, other people may prefer cold weather, and so on. By goodness, I'm talking about virtues.  

Righteousness, truth, love, charity... all objectively good. As opposed to greed, hate, wrath, etc.

(August 31, 2017 at 3:35 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Hate to see you two fight like this.  After you hash it out I hope you can just scissor and make up.

We're not fighting; this is our foreplay

(August 31, 2017 at 4:47 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I wasn't really referring to the emotional love, aka the warm fuzzy feelings. Choosing to do good for others, doing for them what they want done to you, selflessness, etc, are all representations of love, and they are independent of having strong feelings. 

 
I think when whatevs posted

(August 31, 2017 at 3:42 pm)Whateverist Wrote: We may just have discovered something over which we'll just have to agree to disagree.

That was a hint that we shouldn't hijack his thread.

So... I have thoughts but will keep them to myself.

For now.