Okay, if it's the law you're looking for a middle ground in, this is one case where I don't think there really is one.

Possibly with the philosophical exemption, but really, in practice, all it does is open up a possibility of outbreaks of diseases we thought were a thing of the past. And, as I'm sure you've guessed, this happens frequently, though evidently not often enough that the movement goes bust. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

(September 24, 2017 at 12:16 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: Okay, if it's the law you're looking for a middle ground in, this is one case where I don't think there really is one.

Possibly with the philosophical exemption, but really, in practice, all it does is open up a possibility of outbreaks of diseases we thought were a thing of the past. And, as I'm sure you've guessed, this happens frequently, though evidently not often enough that the movement goes bust. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

My suggestion was that non vaccinated kids' parents be required to let their school know. That way they keep the healthy non vaccinated kids way from the ones that are not vaccinated due to legitimate health reasons. Put them in different classes.  

I think this is a better option than straight up forbidding non vaccinated kids to attend public school.

(September 24, 2017 at 9:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(September 24, 2017 at 12:16 am)Rev. Rye Wrote: Okay, if it's the law you're looking for a middle ground in, this is one case where I don't think there really is one.

Possibly with the philosophical exemption, but really, in practice, all it does is open up a possibility of outbreaks of diseases we thought were a thing of the past. And, as I'm sure you've guessed, this happens frequently, though evidently not often enough that the movement goes bust. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

My suggestion was that non vaccinated kids' parents be required to let their school know. That way they keep the healthy non vaccinated kids way from the ones that are not vaccinated due to legitimate health reasons. Put them in different classes.  

I think this is a better option than straight up forbidding non vaccinated kids to attend public school.

Segregation is a good answer. For the non vaccinated (the minority) separate schools, stores, restaurants, movie theaters, ........

Edit: Maybe we should have them marked.

I hate anti-vaxxers so much.

CL, I wish more people thought like you do. I think we fundamentally disagree on a lot of things but I could say the same thing--that people need to MYOB.

I think vaccination is a very complicated issue because it affects the population as a whole. The anti-vax movement is based on patently false rhetoric, and that is backed up with verifiable, repeatable evidence to the contrary, that's the frustrating part. We can't mind our business because what our neighbor does has a direct and potentially profound effect on us. 

Poliomyelitis was *this* close to being eradicated and wiped off the face of the map in India back in the late 90s, and this sort of false information caused a rebound of the virus. People were claiming that Big Government wanted to inject everyone with a substance that made you sterile, so people quit getting the vaccine. If anyone cares to see a brief summary of what happened, it's an interesting story.
https://www.slideshare.net/COREGroup1/me...nda-biswas

I agree Mermaid, that it's a civil duty. It's something people "ought" to do. But i dont think passing a law that forces everyone to be vaccinated, or that discriminates agasint these people in a big way, seems right either. Maybe there should be more focus on awareness and education so that this wouldn't be an issue to begin with.

I just wonder if sometimes this comes from a place of dislike towards people who believe vaccines may be harmful.... And so there's the desire to "punish" these people.

Anti vaxers tend to be either uber conservative, "all natural" hippie types, anti science, or from some sort of strict religion that forbids vaccines. I know there exists prejudice against people in those groups to begin with, even independent from vaccines.

Im not gonna lie... sometimes I feel like outrage towards people who choose not to vaccinate their kids comes from downright dislike of certain types of people rather than genuine concern for the well being of others. Not saying that's you, mermaid, you seem very reasonable and objective in your opinion. But some others... I just gotta wonder.

(September 24, 2017 at 10:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Im not gonna lie... sometimes I feel like outrage towards people who choose not to vaccinate their kids comes from downright dislike of certain types of people rather than genuine concern for the well being of others. Not saying that's you, mermaid, you seem very reasonable and objective in your opinion. But some others... I just gotta wonder.

Quote:...That way they keep the healthy non vaccinated kids way from the ones that are not vaccinated due to legitimate health reasons. Put them in different classes. 

This...

(September 22, 2017 at 8:43 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: If this is C_L trolling I'ma gonna LMFAO.

C_L?

Appears to be more applicable as each day passes.

(September 24, 2017 at 10:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I agree Mermaid, that it's a civil duty. It's something people "ought" to do. But i dont think passing a law that forces everyone to be vaccinated, or that discriminates agasint these people in a big way, seems right either. Maybe there should be more focus on awareness and education so that this wouldn't be an issue to begin with.  

I have to be honest and say that with regards to forcing everyone to vaccine.... I haven't actually decided whether I'm pro or anti doing that yet.

I am extremely pro vax and very anti-anti-vax. I despise anti-vaxxers.

But I am also extremely pro freedom-of-choice (in the political and personal sense) and extremely anti-forcing-anybody-to-do-anything-even-something-really-important.

But this is really really important. It's a close one for me... but I think at the end of the day I'd probably want to increase education and awareness of the reality and ban teaching anti-vax shit in schools or colleges (if any of that shit is taught) but I'd allow anti-vaxxers idiots to protest wherever they like and I wouldn't FORCE anyone to vax.

But... I'm talking adults here. I don't think any adult should be forced to vax themselves or each other.

I do think that parents should be made to vax their kids. That's probably where I'd stand. I don't think children should miss out on being vaxed just because they have idiot parents. But if somehow children do become adults without being vaxxed in everything... then once they're an adult they should be allowed the freedom of choice to be as irresponsible as they like with themselves and their friends... just not with their own kids of anybody else's kids.

I would say that's how I stand on the matter.

By the way... I'm not the same with religion.

I do think that indoctrinating any kid into one particular religion is a form of child abuse as it's isolating neglectful... BUT I think that teaching children religion isn't abusive at all if you teach them about other religions as well and give them a full picture.

I think comparative religion should be mandatory in schools.

I disagree with Daniel Dennett on a lot of things... but I agree with him extremely strongly here:





And I think that having a completely unbiased teaching about all different religions... is the best possible indirect path to atheism. And I am not suggesting it because I'm biased in favor with atheism. I am suggesting it because being as informed as possible is the best possible outcome... and it just so happens to be a lucky by product that that is definitely the best path to atheism

(September 20, 2017 at 8:19 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Looks like parents are finding ways to avoid school age vaccinations with the help of spineless physicians. At least the new law cut the unvaccinated percent.

Medical Vaccination Exemptions on the Rise in California

Deborah Lehman, MD reviewing: Delamater PL et al. JAMA 2017 Sep 5.

In the year following elimination of personal belief exemptions, California's medical exemptions rose threefold. In 2015, California became the third state (joining West Virginia and Mississippi) to eliminate personal belief exemptions (PBEs) for vaccination requirements for kindergarten attendance. Starting in January 2016, only medical exemptions were acceptable for children to attend school without a complete set of immunizations.

Using publicly available kindergarten entry data, researchers examined exemptions for all children in California from 1996 to 2016. PBEs slowly increased from 0.46% in 1996 to 2.37% in 2015, and medical exemptions increased slightly from 0.06% to 0.17%. In the year following implementation of the law, PBEs decreased to 0.56%, whereas medical exemptions rose to 0.51% — a threefold increase from the previous year. Total exemptions (personal belief and medical) for immunizations for children entering kindergarten fell from 2.54% in 2015 to 1.06% in 2016. Counties with the highest PBEs prior to 2016 had the greatest increase in medical exemptions following implementation of the law.

COMMENT

Although overall exemptions in California decreased after implementation of a law eliminating PBEs, the rising number of medical exemptions, particularly in counties with previously high PBEs, suggests that parents are now finding physicians who will attest to a medical exemption to allow their unvaccinated children to attend school. Given that true medical exemptions for vaccination are few, it is likely that physicians are providing these exemptions in the absence of evidence-based data. Granting such exemptions, and allowing unvaccinated or undervaccinated children to attend school, puts all children at risk for vaccine preventable disease and is a dangerous practice.

honestly this scientific ignorance will cull a generation or more given time. Vaccinations work
idiots who don't get their child vaccinated will get one of these diseases. Vaccines work the end.

(September 24, 2017 at 10:59 am)Succubus Wrote:

(September 24, 2017 at 10:23 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Im not gonna lie... sometimes I feel like outrage towards people who choose not to vaccinate their kids comes from downright dislike of certain types of people rather than genuine concern for the well being of others. Not saying that's you, mermaid, you seem very reasonable and objective in your opinion. But some others... I just gotta wonder.

Quote:...That way they keep the healthy non vaccinated kids way from the ones that are not vaccinated due to legitimate health reasons. Put them in different classes. 

This...

(September 22, 2017 at 8:43 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: If this is C_L trolling I'ma gonna LMFAO.

C_L?

Appears to be more applicable as each day passes.

I think you guys misunderstand.

The argument as I understand it is that while non vaccinated kids don't pose a risk to those who are, they do pose a risk for those who aren't due to legitimate medical reasons (like cancer or other serious illness).

So what i was saying was to keep the kids who don't have vaccines due to non medical reasons in a different classroom as those who dont have vaccines due to legitimate medical reasons.