@ Giff: you talk such trash. You need to go find out some basics as you're just showing your ignorance here.

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(May 10, 2009 at 11:12 am)Darwinian Wrote:

Quote:There are examples on every page EvF. Go look for yourself.

So that would be a no then.

In many ways the deeply religious are like politicians in that you can never get a straight answer from them.

Is there any evidence (there's that rude word again) of the existence of a god? No, because if there where then forums like this would not exist.

You want me to think for you too?

Forums like this exist because of the mass ignorance on the subject.

It's not that there is any ignorance about the subject, it's simply that the subject is superstitious mythology created directly from the imagination of people who want easy answers to fundamental questions rather than to investigate reality as it actually is.

Forums like this exist to counteract the pious arrogant woolly thoughts of the faithful and to resist religions virus like tendency to infect everyone with the same condition.

I disagree that there's not ignorance on the subject. You should see what it looks like from my point of view!

I do like the counteraction of pious religious woolly arrogance and support that.

fr0d0, so apparently there is (non-empirical) evidence of God on every page, and I should take a look for myself..?

Well I don't know what 'magic reasoning powers' you apparently have - but could you actually give me an example like I asked?

WHERE in the bible is there any indication whatsoever of God actually existing objectively in reality? It's just a bunch of bare assertions that could apply to the FSM just as much as God.

I should 'just take a look' apparently. And it 'just make sense to you'...

OOh....spooky shit. Well I'm sorry but I don't see it. All I asked was an example and an explanation.

If you can really understand this 'non empirical' evidence of yours...why not explain it?

Rather than just say "it's all there on every page, take a look" well I don't see it...

Once again... oooh spooky shit.

EvF

Yeah.. you need no 'spooky magical reasoning powers' EvF. It's there in plain & simple language. You should be able to see it with simple reading.

All of the Bible presents explanations of Gods existence in reality. If you're not going to bother to look then you're never going to see it are you? Sort of shut your eyes and it's not there sort of approach you have there huh?

That's the thing with it you see. If you don't want to see it, then no one is going to be able to show you are they? I mean, you may as well go on repeating in every other post that this may as well be about the FSM because what effort are you going to put into the discovery? ...None. You wont even start thinking about it because for whatever reason, certainly illogical reason, you're afraid of it. You have no clue why you think what you do. You just know that you have to carry on hiding behind your few cliches.

What are you talking about? You said EVERY page...even *I* have read a few pages (and a few pages more if you count ass the quotes and reverences and Dawkins and SAB)...

And there are atheists who HAVE read it all.

The bible says stuff about God yes. But how is any of it evidence? It's all assertions. It is not evidence. No more or less relevant to the FSM.

And besides. You are telling me I have 'no clue' why I 'think what' I do.

Well, you tell me how ANY, BOOK in and of itself can be evidence of the existence of a supernatural deity?

UNLESS - it's a magic book. AND - where is there evidence that the bible is a 'magic book' or IOW has anything supernatural or 'spiritual' or 'Godly' about it or whatever...

How can a BOOK in and of itself be evidence? It could say fucking ANYTHING in there, how would it be evidence?

And you still can't give me an example. You have said EVERY page is evidence. Well that is truly and utterly, obviously bullshit...UNLESS - you can explain to me how the bible is FULL of evidence (NON-emprical) for this God that you believe in?

WHERE? How can pages and a few words be evidence of God unless the bible is a 'magic book?' And if it IS - where's the evidence that it is if that's what you believe? It's just a fucking book.

EvF

Well that's it isn't it EvF. It isn't JUST a book. It's a seriously refined & concise collection of the evidence of God's working in this reality. Not just any book qualifies as this, because not every book has gone through the process of selection that this has gone through.. and I'm not referring to the council in 400AD that decided the final canon we know now, I' talking about the Judaic Rabbinical system of selection and approval.

Jews over the centuries have recorded what could justifiable be added to this work. You can call it magic. The truth is far more mundane. It's simple and practical and has functioning application for your life now.

Merely reading it will get you to the position that the reasoning for the existence of God is possible. Still it won't fulfil it's full potential because that requires belief to do so. Belief transforms it into full truth, as the pieces of the puzzle then truly fit together.

(May 10, 2009 at 4:02 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Well that's it isn't it EvF. It isn't JUST a book.

But it is a BOOK though. The stuff the bible says, how does it give any evidence (non-empirical or WHATEVER) that God actually exists? It's just stuff written down about God - it's a book. Show me otherwise that it's any more than that.

How does the stuff the bible says give any more ( or less) evidence to God actually exsting than any other book does(n't)?

Quote:It's a seriously refined & concise collection of the evidence of God's working in this reality.

But how is this 'collection' evidence? How does it give evidence of God's actual existence? It says stuff about God, etc, - how do you interpret that to give evidence (non-emprical, whatever!) that God actually objectively exists?

Quote: Not just any book qualifies as this, because not every book has gone through the process of selection that this has gone through.. and I'm not referring to the council in 400AD that decided the final canon we know now, I' talking about the Judaic Rabbinical system of selection and approval.

Process of selection and approval means nothing if it doesn't actually count as evidence towards God actually existing (Non-empirical, whatever! Shall I just say NE?).

What it is actually about has to count as evidence - it's no use being approved and going through a selection if it's not actually evidence. How does this approval and process count as evidence (N-E, whatever!) towards God actually existing exactly?

Quote:Jews over the centuries have recorded what could justifiable be added to this work. You can call it magic. The truth is far more mundane. It's simple and practical and has functioning application for your life now.

Well ideas, advice and 'tools' that help my life practically. That's a different matter whether they help or not. When talking about if God actually EXISTS - we're not talking about our lives being helped.

Sure, if "God" can help our lives...BUT - he CAN'T help our lives if HE doesn't exist in the first place can he! So we need evidence for this "God" FIRST.

How does recorded records and all this stuff in the bible give any evidence (of any form) that God actually objectively exists, exactly??

Practical functioning for my life. God doing that for 'us' has no effect whatsoever if this "God" doesn't even exist! You need evidence for God FIRST before you can use him to help your life and then use THAT as evidence for him - that's circular.

Whether belief in God helps practically or not is irrelevant to the actual question: Does God actually exist?

We need evidence for him first. We're not talking about helping our lives practically here (well I dunno if YOU are, but I'm saying there's no use if God doesn't actually exist). First we need evidence for God.

How are these 'records' this 'process' and the 'approval' count as evidence torwards God actually existing? How does it count AT ALL whatsoever?

If the FSM went through a 'process' and got 'approval' and had plenty of 'records'...would the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster count as evidence torwards the FSM?

Because if not according to you, then how come these things support the BIBLE?

It's a book - how can the words in it give evidence that a "God" actually exists?

Quote:Merely reading it will get you to the position that the reasoning for the existence of God is possible.

I don't see how words in a book (whatever they mean) could give evidence for the existence of "God" (NE) existing. I mean it's not like there's a mathematical equation in there that somehow 'proves God' where is the evidence? It's stories. Everyone interprets it differently - how can you say that what YOU interpret is evidence?

Where is the evidence exactly? On every page? Many disagree - how are these 'words' in this 'book' evidence? (NE (non-empirical) whatever)

Quote: Still it won't fulfil it's full potential because that requires belief to do so. Belief transforms it into full truth, as the pieces of the puzzle then truly fit together.

Oh I see. So you believe without evidence FIRST and then because you already believe then you reason that you have evidence? Because the belief ITSELF makes it work (it 'transforms it into full truth') like the belief is evidence, so even if you believe WITHOUT evidence, then that's ok because the belief itself is a form of evidence?? ( I personally suggest taking a look again (and a good hard look) because you know it IS possible you could be actually believing without evidence you know (NE included! 'Reasoning' included!))

EvF

I think we're back on track EvF but gimme time to respond given 'other' commitments k

Back on track into a infinite argument that will have no winner. Don't you guys get sick of typing?