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RE: Two scenarios that may/may not happen.
October 13, 2017 at 12:23 am
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2017 at 12:27 am by RayOfLight.)
(October 13, 2017 at 12:14 am)Khemikal Wrote: Until you can identify a single one of those facts.....Ray, it looks like a pretext to fling shit.
Identify what? That some historians do use the Gospels as historical documents?
PS: I don't use Google search to search for reliable sources, sorry, I don't have time to waste on some guy with a blog or some writer that likes to get a few bucks by writing a book with a shocking title. As a university student, I have access to academic search engines (professors don't accept google search materials in essays) that include peer-reviewed articles, so I don't know how you can access that.
(October 13, 2017 at 12:20 am)Minimalist Wrote: Moron jesus freaks think they are historical. I suppose you think it is a historical fact that your godboy flew up to fucking heaven, right?
We do not know who wrote them. We don't know when they were written. We don't know what, if any, source material was used for the original story (Gmark) although we can see that the later stories were largely copied from that one.
That is not history son. That is religious bullshit.
How am I supposed to discuss anything with you? You clearly are dogmatic just like a fundamentalist Christian, dear lord!
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RE: Two scenarios that may/may not happen.
October 13, 2017 at 12:28 am
Using the gospels as historical documents doesn't mean historians believe the supernatural aspects of the tale. It's mostly just an anthropological data point.
This seems to be a common tactic in apologetics, but it's fallacious. That the gospels are used by historians, or even that it got some mundane things correct about certain people or places doesn't lend credence to the mythological claims within. That's an entirely separate burden of proof that needs to be met.
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RE: Two scenarios that may/may not happen.
October 13, 2017 at 12:30 am
(October 13, 2017 at 12:28 am)KevinM1 Wrote: Using the gospels as historical documents doesn't mean historians believe the supernatural aspects of the tale. It's mostly just an anthropological data point.
This seems to be a common tactic in apologetics, but it's fallacious. That the gospels are used by historians, or even that it got some mundane things correct about certain people or places doesn't lend credence to the mythological claims within. That's an entirely separate burden of proof that needs to be met.
Exactly! And that is what my point is.
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RE: Two scenarios that may/may not happen.
October 13, 2017 at 12:34 am
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2017 at 12:34 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 13, 2017 at 12:23 am)RayOfLight Wrote: (October 13, 2017 at 12:14 am)Khemikal Wrote: Until you can identify a single one of those facts.....Ray, it looks like a pretext to fling shit.
Identify what? That some historians do use the Gospels as historical documents? You made claim to facts that support your religion. I'd like to see at least one of them.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Two scenarios that may/may not happen.
October 13, 2017 at 12:40 am
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2017 at 12:42 am by RayOfLight.)
(October 13, 2017 at 12:34 am)Khemikal Wrote: (October 13, 2017 at 12:23 am)RayOfLight Wrote: Identify what? That some historians do use the Gospels as historical documents? You made claim to facts that support your religion. I'd like to see at least one of them.
That (Historical Jesus) existed that someone called Paul existed, that he wrote several of the epistles (not all), the earliest of them was in the 50s of the first century. That there were early Christians in Jerusalem that claimed their leader was the Messiah, and that he rose from the dead. Now did he rise? That's something the historians are in dispute about.
The "Jesus, Paul, and disciples never existed" is just something that is popular by folks that are into either conspiracy theory or would rather take the easy way out.
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RE: Two scenarios that may/may not happen.
October 13, 2017 at 12:41 am
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2017 at 12:41 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 13, 2017 at 12:40 am)RayOfLight Wrote: (October 13, 2017 at 12:34 am)Khemikal Wrote: You made claim to facts that support your religion. I'd like to see at least one of them.
That (Historical Jesus) existed that someone called Paul existed, that he wrote several of the epistles (not all), the earliest of them was in the 50s of the first century. That there were early Christians in Jerusalem that claimed their leader was the Messiah, and that he rose from the dead. Now did he rise? That's something the historians are in dispute about.
Do you worship a man named jesus or a god? Is your gods name Paul?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Two scenarios that may/may not happen.
October 13, 2017 at 12:45 am
(October 13, 2017 at 12:41 am)Khemikal Wrote: (October 13, 2017 at 12:40 am)RayOfLight Wrote: That (Historical Jesus) existed that someone called Paul existed, that he wrote several of the epistles (not all), the earliest of them was in the 50s of the first century. That there were early Christians in Jerusalem that claimed their leader was the Messiah, and that he rose from the dead. Now did he rise? That's something the historians are in dispute about.
Do you worship a man named jesus or a god? Is your gods name Paul?
Do I? I don't know, I'm going through a struggle of faith and don't know where I stand, but that doesn't mean I'm going to deny the facts just because I may become an atheist. Is it a requirement to just go along with "Jesus never existed, Paul is a made up guy, religion is awful, and religious people can go to hell" in order for me to become an atheist ?
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RE: Two scenarios that may/may not happen.
October 13, 2017 at 12:48 am
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2017 at 12:50 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Neither the existence of a historical jesus or a historical paul are facts. Amusingly, it wouldn't matter if they were..because unless you worship a man or your gods name is paul..they aren't facts that support your religion.
So I guess you're gonna have to figure that one out, eh?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Two scenarios that may/may not happen.
October 13, 2017 at 12:51 am
(October 13, 2017 at 12:48 am)Khemikal Wrote: Neither the existence of a historical jesus or a historical paul are facts. Amusingly, it wouldn't matter if they were..unless you worship a man or your gods name is paul..they aren't facts that support your religion.
Oh yes they're. Again, there are a minority of historians that think they didn't exist, but the majority of Biblical scholars believe they did.
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RE: Two scenarios that may/may not happen.
October 13, 2017 at 12:52 am
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2017 at 12:52 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Things don't become facts by repetition or by popularity...and again, it wouldn't matter if they were..unless you worship some schmuck, or his tax collecting fanboi.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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