As I read more and more into the Quran; I came to a conclusion that it is an authentic message sent to humanity from a diving, higher source. The message contains orders, warnings and stories, all told and foretold and stated from an entity claiming to be "The Creator of Everything", with everything literally meaning everything, including the light and darkness, good and evil, life and death.

    A person named "Mohammed" claimed that the message was revealed to him; and with it as a constitution and law, he shaped the world forever, drawing a fine line between humans; just as the entity called "God" claimed in the message known as "The Quran".

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      The author of the Quran says about himself:

Quote:Sura 112, The Quran:
( 1 )   Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One,
( 2 )   Allah, the Eternal Refuge.
( 3 )   He neither begets nor is born,
( 4 )   Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

The word "Say" is an order to Mohammed to recite the above.
The word "Allah" means "God" in Arabic language.

God -according to these verses- is an eternal entity, that exists as a fact, a fact never was born and never was created, or was a product of something else.

     A big part is not given, but the message gives the origins of human creation:

Quote:Sura 15, The Quran:
( 28 )   And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "I will create a human being out of clay from an altered black mud.
( 29 )   And when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration."
( 30 )   So the angels prostrated - all of them entirely,
( 31 )   Except Iblees, he refused to be with those who prostrated.
( 32 )   [Allah] said, O Iblees, what is [the matter] with you that you are not with those who prostrate?"
( 33 )   He said, "Never would I prostrate to a human whom You created out of clay from an altered black mud."
( 34 )   [Allah] said, "Then get out of it, for indeed, you are expelled.
( 35 )   And indeed, upon you is the curse until the Day of Recompense."
( 36 )   He said, "My Lord, then reprieve me until the Day they are resurrected."
( 37 )   [Allah] said, "So indeed, you are of those reprieved
( 38 )   Until the Day of the time well-known."
  [Iblees] said, "My Lord, because You have put me in error, I will surely make [disobedience] attractive to them on earth, and I will mislead them all
( 40 )   Except, among them, Your chosen servants."
( 41 )   [Allah] said, "This is a path [of return] to Me [that is] straight.
( 42 )   Indeed, My servants - no authority will you have over them, except those who follow you of the deviators.
( 43 )   And indeed, Hell is the promised place for them all.
( 44 )   It has seven gates; for every gate is of them a portion designated."
( 45 )   Indeed, the righteous will be within gardens

God created humans out of mud. Mud is water and sand, and humans are nothing but lots of water and stardust.
After God created us, an angel called "Iblees which is Satan in Arabic" rebelled in utter racism and despise to the new creation, refusing to pay respect to what God has made.
For him being created out of fire; and not the result of a super-nova (not being created out of star fragments-dust). Fire is pure. Dust is fragments of a whole. So to his mind; racism was an option dictated by his ego.

Knowing exactly that he will lose against God; he promised to drag the new creation with him to hell. God thus, sent us to earth along with Satan, so we fight and gain our ranks in the after life. With the righteous -followers of God- go to paradise -gardens-, and the sinners -followers of Satan- go to hell.

Satan said furthermore:

Quote:Sura 4, The Quran:
( 119 )   And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah." And whoever takes Satan as an ally instead of Allah has certainly sustained a clear loss.
( 120 )   Satan promises them and arouses desire in them. But Satan does not promise them except delusion.

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     According to the above; I believe life is a test. As Satan orders and promises and inject lies in the heads of people; we must resist what he does. God intentionally put us here together in this arena, to gain our ranks in the afterlife. Jealousy and racism has no place in heaven.

     Many laws and sentences are dictated by that God to aid humans in the fight against Satan. Satan's cause is to make humans do what God hates; in order for God to throw more people in hell. A plan God describes in Sura 4, Verse 120.

I will put here all the sentences I can remember and believe in. With what I think is the justification for them too, with the Quranic verses that I used to conclude them:

1-No compulsion in accepting Islam:
Islam is not to be compulsively forced upon people; so you can either believe or disbelieve; it's totally up to you:

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
( 256 )   There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.

2-You have the right to hurt who hurts you, the same way he/she hurts you, or forgive them:

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
( 194 )   [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

3-That who steals must get his hand cut, the sentence is extreme because thievery is extreme; too. Thievery is robbery of years and hours of one's hard work, it is punished by non-Muslims with years in prison:

Quote:Sura 5, The Quran:
( 38 )   [As for] the thief, the male and the female, amputate their hands in recompense for what they committed as a deterrent [punishment] from Allah. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise.
( 39 )   But whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, indeed, Allah will turn to him in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

4-100 lashes for sex without a contract, as it is a crime against society for the children that might be a result of the intercourse; in so many cases the husbands run away leaving the female alone to suffer the raising of the kids; sometimes both parents run and leave the kid to overload society, protection is no guarantee and the statistics prove that:

Quote:Sura 24, The Quran:
( 2 )   The woman or man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.
( 3 )   The fornicator does not marry except a [female] fornicator or polytheist, and none marries her except a fornicator or a polytheist, and that has been made unlawful to the believers.

5-Corruptors in earth, like serial killers, terrorists or the Vegas shooter, should have their arm and leg cut and get crucified, or killed, or be banished from the land; such penalties will loath their legacy with shame for their acts:

Quote:Sura 5, The Quran:
( 33 )   Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
( 34 )   Except for those who return [repenting] before you apprehend them. And know that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

6-Mocking people is forbidden, even if one saw himself or herself as better:

Quote:Sura 49, The Quran:
( 11 )   O you who have believed, let not a people ridicule [another] people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women ridicule [other] women; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by [offensive] nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after [one's] faith. And whoever does not repent - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

7-In cases of domestic abuse from wives toward their husbands, husbands have the right to resort to beating after talking and advicing, then abandon the mate in bed. Notice the levels please; a wife that rebels against the contract she willingfully signed on, and for example abused her husband, he can repay her the same treatment, following this verse, and the level it tells; with full consideration to rule number 2: hurt the same way you get hurt.

Some women beat the hell out of their husbands; too. "Standing upon" is the literal translation of the Arabic word used in this verse (قوامون), in other words men must use what God gave them naturally -muscle mass, greater physical strength by birth...etc- and the cash they have, to spend on the women they marry.

Quote:Sura 4, The Quran:
( 34 )   Men are standing upon women with what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear recalcitrance- [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.

8-The killer must be executed:

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
( 178 )   O you who have believed, prescribed for you is legal retribution for those murdered - the free for the free, the slave for the slave, and the female for the female. But whoever overlooks from his brother anything, then there should be a suitable follow-up and payment to him with good conduct. This is an alleviation from your Lord and a mercy. But whoever transgresses after that will have a painful punishment.
( 179 )   And there is for you in legal retribution [saving of] life, O you [people] of understanding, that you may become righteous.

9-You must treat your parents good:

Quote:Sura 31, The Quran:
( 14 )   And We have enjoined upon man [care] for his parents. His mother carried him, [increasing her] in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning is in two years. Be grateful to Me and to your parents; to Me is the [final] destination.

10-You should treat your relatives good:

Quote:Sura 42, The Quran:
( 23 )   It is that of which Allah gives good tidings to His servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say, [O Muhammad], "I do not ask you for this message any payment [but] only good will through kinship." And whoever commits a good deed - We will increase for him good therein. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Appreciative.

11-Never be arrogant, be good to all people:

Quote:Sura 31, The Quran:
( 17 )   O my son, establish prayer, enjoin what is right, forbid what is wrong, and be patient over what befalls you. Indeed, [all] that is of the matters [requiring] determination.
( 18 )   And do not turn your cheek [in contempt] toward people and do not walk through the earth exultantly. Indeed, Allah does not like everyone self-deluded and boastful.
( 19 )   And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."

That's not all. But that is what I can write now; and I tried to put everything controversial with the verse that points to it.
Stoning, killing gays, killing witches, and all these things are not even in the Quran.

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      The end is not in this life. The end is the day we get judged about the fight against Satan. In that day; we gain our ranks: either in hell or paradise depending on our deeds in this life and the mercy of God:

Quote:Sura 79, The Quran:
( 34 )   But when there comes the greatest Overwhelming Calamity -
( 35 )   The Day when man will remember that for which he strove.
( 36 )   And Hellfire will be exposed for [all] those who see -
( 37 )   So as for he who transgressed
( 38 )   And preferred the life of the world,
( 39 )   Then indeed, Hellfire will be [his] refuge.
( 40 )   But as for he who feared the position of his Lord and prevented the soul from [unlawful] inclination,
( 41 )   Then indeed, Paradise will be [his] refuge.
( 42 )   They ask you, [O Muhammad], about the Hour: when is its arrival?
( 43 )   In what [position] are you that you should mention it?
( 44 )   To your Lord is its finality.
( 45 )   You are only a warner for those who fear it.
( 46 )   It will be, on the Day they see it, as though they had not remained [in the world] except for an afternoon or a morning thereof.

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     I believe, and think that day is coming. The world is paying dearly for not listening to Prophet Mohammed peace be upon him. Now; humans stacked their world with guns and nuclear bombs; they corrupted their planet and the lives of others; there is something seriously wrong with the economy of the world; people -despite the high technological advances- are voting to people like Trump, agree to be led by people like the Sauds or Kim Jong Un. Satan is winning against humans.
He lost himself already; but so many lost themselves with him too.

If everyone is equal why is slavery OK? One line mentioned there literally says a free person is not equal to a slave. Contradictory to the equality being preached.

Another sort of contradiction here is, you know Adam and Eve. They are supposed to be in the garden (as you mentioned the garden is heaven). Now if Satan had this conversation with Allah the quran mentions. Then how did he know about "the day of resurrection" (judgment day, which means earth and the whole "test" scenario had been proposed already) . How did Satan know about this, the first man has just been created? There wasnt even an earth or a woman yet?

Probably many other contradictions too but do not have time to decipher the entire book.

Anyway that is just knit picking. Stories recycled by the "messengers" of old wouldn't exactly be the most consistent stories ever written, I mean, it's not like a perfect God wrote them... Oh wait...

But on a more serious note, what your entire faith comes down to is: You believe that a man was possessed by an angel and while possessed gave off these suras (and when he got home and told people of this, his wife was the first to believe him, or something like that)

That's all the evidence you need. But no logical person would accept that as evidence. The only way is to brainwash it in very early when the brain isnt fully developed. The brain then grows and develops with these concepts being injected in. The unfortunate person's brain then tries its best to incorporate this nonsense into reality, since the pure sincerity that their teachers and parents are using, it just cant be a lie right? By the time the brain is fully developed it's too late and cowers at the mere thought of doubting (but not always, sometimes there is hope of logic and rationality breaking through).

(November 4, 2017 at 7:01 am)SaStrike Wrote: If everyone is equal why is slavery OK? One line mentioned there literally says a free person is not equal to a slave. Contradictory to the equality being preached.

Some are more equal than others. Convenient if you happen to be one of those who get to decide who's who.

Big Mo was a slaving warlord who had a thing for little girls and ethnic cleansing.......following his lead wouldn't be an improvement for most of us.

Fuck Muhammed! What a load of shit!

Atlass, I am glad you value peace, I am also glad you value non violence but no, I do not think you need your Koran or any religion to value that.

In fact, just like Christians and Jews, I think this religious sense of entitlement is causing all three to needlessly dig in and cause a self fulfilling prophesy. I wish my fellow humans would stop thinking their clubs explain the meaning of life, and I wish they'd stop thinking their respective clubs are the center of everything.

I'd love to see everyone live in peace and focus on things like pollution, climate change and global poverty.

I really cannot buy claims of any god of any name on a planet older than our species in a universe even older than our solar system.

Humans DO have a great potential to value empathy and non violence, when we chose, I simply do not see any need to fill our goodness in as being magically handed down to us.

SaStrike

Quote:if everyone is equal why is slavery OK? One line mentioned there literally says a free person is not equal to a slave. Contradictory to the equality being preached.

But in this verse, which orders Muslims to kill a soul for a soul:

Quote:Sura 5, The Quran:
( 44 )   Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. and whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.
( 45 )   And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.

And Muslims are ordered to believe in what was revealed before. The portions the Quran approves; though.
Back when slavery was a fact, slave lives were given value under Islam; and slaves who murder each other will get the same punishment as the free who do so.

Quote: Another sort of contradiction here is, you know Adam and Eve. They are supposed to be in the garden (as you mentioned the garden is heaven). Now if Satan had this conversation with Allah the quran mentions. Then how did he know about "the day of resurrection" (judgment day, which means earth and the whole "test" scenario had been proposed already) . How did Satan know about this, the first man has just been created? There wasnt even an earth or a woman yet?

Satan was from a race called "Jinn". They are created out of fire:

Quote:Sura 18, The Quran:
( 50 )   And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate to Adam," and they prostrated, except for Iblees. He was of the jinn and departed from the command of his Lord. Then will you take him and his descendants as allies other than Me while they are enemies to you? Wretched it is for the wrongdoers as an exchange.

Earth was already created before the creation of Adam and Eve:

Quote:Sura 2, The Quran:
( 30 )   And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

Angels (including Satan who was one of them) already knew about humanity's arrival, and even pointed in the above verse to another race that inhabited earth before the creation of humanity. That race can be "Satan's" race; hence his racism and severe hate for humans.

"Adam" is not a reference to male's specifically. In another verse, God says that humans were one, that became two:

Quote:Sura 4, The Quran:
( 1 )   O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah, through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer.

Maybe Satan knew that all along. Jinn are probably advanced creatures that lived in our universe before a very long time; there's a whole Sura about them that reminds a lot with what people now say about aliens.

Quote:Probably many other contradictions too but do not have time to decipher the entire book.

I blame the reading style. The book is pretty big; 600 pages. Usually; verses are scattered, and personally I think this is for a reason: so people who are biased get lost and disbelieve. Every contradiction gets erased with further reading; that's why Muslims have been increasing so fast across the 1400 past years ago.

Quote: That's all the evidence you need. But no logical person would accept that as evidence. The only way is to brainwash it in very early when the brain isnt fully developed. The brain then grows and develops with these concepts being injected in. The unfortunate person's brain then tries its best to incorporate this nonsense into reality, since the pure sincerity that their teachers and parents are using, it just cant be a lie right? By the time the brain is fully developed it's too late and cowers at the mere thought of doubting (but not always, sometimes there is hope of logic and rationality breaking through).

Very logical people believed in this. They contributed to math, invented Algebra, introduced the recipe of alcohol, introduced coffee to the world, they shaped what the world of today looks like. Without Islam and what it turned the Middle East into; humanity would've still been clashing debating who should rule: King Edward the  Troll, or smelly Marry.

Very Logical People™ believe all sorts of silly shit.

No, people did all that stuff. Islam didn't.

Algebra was invented before Islam. For example the very tribe Muhamad was from were idol worshippers. This doesnt make idol worship true and im sure you can give logical and rational reasons why idol worship is not viable. Also This doesn't change the fact that the bas of Islam is extremely shaky. 1 man and his wife's promise that it did happen... war and force did play a big part in the spread of Islam but thats another can of worms.