If you take a look at the above (atf tdr), btw..and the stats are similar for any state..trace data shows us that new guns are rarely used in crimes..the national time-to-crime average is 11 years.  The national average age for a possessor in a trace is 36.  Pistols and revolvers are the go-to...and 9mm is the caliber of choice...... not by a little, by alot

If we focus our enforcement on pistols and POS.... while making efforts to buyback 10 year old (or older) 9mm's......that will significantly reduce gun crime.

Understanding that data also explains why our efforts at reducing gun crime have been failing. We've been focusing on the wrong demographics, the wrong guns, and the wrong reduction methods. Political expediency and value has determined those things to an unhealthy extent, of late..and actual progress gets lost in that shuffle. It get;s people elected (on both sides)...but it doesn't do anything about our gun problem.

(November 6, 2017 at 8:09 am)Cyberman Wrote:

(November 6, 2017 at 7:30 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: In a perfect world the thinning would be left to the "trained predators", wolves, lions, bears.

... and humans.

Humans would kill enough to eat. There would be no need for thinning if the balance is restored. Yellowstone is a good example. There were no new aspen trees grown there for seventy years after the last wolf was killed. When the wolves returned the aspens came back, no more over-eating by over-populated deer herds. The beavers came back, the coyotes weren't killing as many because the wolves ran them off. The beaver ponds provided wetlands. The water fowl came back. And so on.

-and then the goat farmers threw a hissy fit about the wolves.

Circling back around...I think that the role, the legitimately positive role, that guns play in the united states shouldn't and can't be ignored. We should be -promoting- that role, while we reduce the sorts of shit that leads to mass shootings and drive-bys and cops playing Judge Dredd on taxpayers dimes.

A knock-on bonus to making hunters and sport shooters gun control allies is that it would devastate the NRA, and we wouldn't have to listen to those dumbasses or their bought politicians anymore. However, this is what happens-

Quote:The American Hunters and Shooters Association (AHSA) was a United States-based non-profit 501©(4) organization which operated from 2005 to 2010. The group described itself as a national grassroots organization for responsible gun ownership and advocated for increased gun control. The organization's president, Ray Schoenke, said the AHSA was intended to bridge the gap between urban liberals and rural gun owners, but closed down due to a lack of support from the Obama administration.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_H...ssociation

Thanks...Obama...?

(November 6, 2017 at 8:20 am)Khemikal Wrote: -and then the goat farmers threw a hissy fit about the wolves.

Circling back around...I think that the role, the legitimately positive role, that guns play in the united states shouldn't and can't be ignored.  We should be -promoting- that role, while we reduce the sorts of shit that leads to mass shootings and drive-bys and cops playing Judge Dredd on taxpayers dimes.

Oh please, knock it off. No, more guns are not working and i am tired of that bullshit. 

We make way too many and they are way too easy to obtain. There is no polite way to put it.

Humans would kill enough to eat, seriously? Have you never heard of trophy hunting? Fox-hunting? Hare-coursing? "The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible"? How about seal-clubbing and whale-hunting? What about all those buffalo that used to roam where the deer and the and antelope play? Remember the mammoth? No, you don't, they were hunted to extinction when cutting-edge weapons technology was literally a cutting edge.

(November 6, 2017 at 8:35 am)Cyberman Wrote: Humans would kill enough to eat, seriously? Have you never heard of trophy hunting? Fox-hunting? Hare-coursing? "The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible"? How about seal-clubbing and whale-hunting? What about all those buffalo that used to roam where the deer and the and antelope play? Remember the mammoth? No, you don't, they were hunted to extinction when cutting-edge weapons technology was literally a cutting edge.

What the fuck are you going on about? I was talking about an "ideal world". 

If humans want to hunt for sport, have them start on opposite side of a forest and hunt each other. There's no sport in killing a deer.

@Brian
The ease with which they are obtained is more relevant to our gun problem than how many there are.  Again, most guns are not used in crime...and the guns that are used in crime are rarely new.  Cracking down on how many guns we make does -nothing- to what the trace data tells us is the issue.  It wastes time, money, -and- political capital.  If I were incredibly cynical...I'd say it wasted lives too.  

Gun crimes are overwhelmingly committed with older pistols.  This is because older guns are within the range of affordability, because older guns are commonly transfered P2P with no background.  Because older pistols..in particular, are cheaper and readily concealable.  

I'm drawing a bullseye around our gun problem based upon data collected by the ATF, and you're telling me, in effect.."No...no, let's do a 180 and shoot towards that factory!"  That is not going to work.

@Cyber
Nowadays, it would be the hunters that saved the buffalo, under the N. American Model. Counter-intuitive turn of fate, I know...but there it is.

This is the same bullshit argument big pharma used to pump opiods to the masses, "You cant ignore the good they do".

Any good doctor is not going to over prescribe something. Having firearms in trained hands nobody is arguing, I am saying that isn't changing the bigger number of deaths due to people having them that should not have them.

Any ethical doctor is going to weigh the benefit vs the risk. Nationally speaking our flooded market is hurting us far more than it is helping us.

Oh well, in an ideal world there would be no killing at all. All dietary needs would be met by renewable sources, like we'd photosynthesise or something.

(November 6, 2017 at 8:42 am)Brian37 Wrote: Nationally speaking our flooded market is hurting us far more than it is helping us.

It's hurting gun manufacturers more than it;s hurting us.  That's why their -actual- lobby is trying to remove barriers and oversight to export.  We've been through this.

Like I said, at the start, I'm not going to tell you that we don;t have too many guns.  I am telling you, by reference to trace data, that the production of new guns is a non-factor in most gun crime.