(November 7, 2017 at 2:58 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 2:54 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: I guess it's all the Father/Son crap in the bible.  The bond between parent and child is the closest thing to unconditional love we have.  And it appears to outclass your god's love.

Does the Father/Son stuff in the Bible apply to everyone, or to the saved?

You tell me. I apparently can't read it right, as an unbeliever.

I did tell you, in the last post.

(November 7, 2017 at 2:59 pm)SteveII Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 2:29 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: Why does free will entail a sinful world?  Because god created sin.  And, supposedly, he knows what the outcome will be.  If he knows I will never become a believer, and knew before I was born, I have no control.

No, free will created sin. Sin is the absence of good. Just like no one created darkness. 
Foreknowledge in no way means control. The fact that you won't choose differently does not mean you couldn't have. God simply knows what every free creature would choose and would not choose (counterfactuals) to do in any given circumstances. There are different theological perspectives and I am arguing/answering from my own.

If he knows I will repent on my deathbed, and I don't, either he didn't know or he was wrong.

Since god created good,and he (and he admits it) created evil, he is responsible for the existence of sin.
Sin is the absence of good only to you guys. It doesn't exist outside if the bible.

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(November 7, 2017 at 3:22 pm)alpha male Wrote: I did tell you, in the last post.

No, you didn't.

(November 7, 2017 at 2:41 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 2:26 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: God wont force us to accept Him. Its the rejection that causes emptiness that causes suffering. I'm not sure why you would blame Him for that.

God could easily provide evidence for his existence, in fact god is supposed to know exactly what would convince me. God simply does not do so. Why not?

The usual christian claim is that god does not want to force me to worship him, he wants me to choose to worship him.

Unfortunately for god, that is not how it works. Suppose that god actually turned up and demonstrated that he did in fact exist. What then? Well, I would accept that he existed. Worship him? Not even remotely.

I don't know why He doesn't do so in this world. He did as Jesus, but that was 2000 years ago. 

When we die and go on to the next life, I assume we will see God and at that point have a last chance to choose to accept Him or reject Him.

(November 7, 2017 at 3:25 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote: No, you didn't.

"Romans 8 & 9, Galatians 4, and Ephesians 1 all refer to believers being adopted as children of God. Obviously if they were born children by default, they wouldn't need to be adopted."

Seems pretty clear to me. What don't you understand?

And why should we take the author(s) of Romans, Galatians and Ephesians seriously?

(November 7, 2017 at 4:03 pm)Astreja Wrote: And why should we take the author(s) of Romans, Galatians and Ephesians seriously?

Because OP is apparently about the god of the bible, and those are books in the bible.

I mean, seriously, are you that fucking stupid?

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(November 2, 2017 at 9:10 pm)possibletarian Wrote: For me this is simply not a problem, I believe we procreate hopefully we born in a country that allows us freedoms and then enjoy life to the full.

I have a few questions though for all who believe in original sin, given that sin had entered the world why did god allow more people to be born he could simply have stopped procreation and allowed the generation of sin to die out, just like he barred a generation of Israelites from entering the promised land because of sin.

Question 1
If he had simply stopped reproduction then only those responsible will have suffered, instead of the insanity of being born to abusers, religious nut jobs, along with death disease and suffering then he could simply have started again.  We do it it with cattle, animals, even humans if they have a disease that threatens the rest of us  or the rest of a heard of cattle, they isolate and often kill the diseased cattle to stop it infecting others.

I'm not asking why god allows suffering, but rather why he allowed people to be born who had not even existed before procreation to enter a world of suffering?


Question 2
If there is some kind  of argument that there has to be a number god has to reach, then where are these spirits/souls before they are born into human bodies ?  Do you perhaps believe in some kind of re-incarnation, or souls waiting for an incarnation ?

These really are questions for any theist, contributions though from anyone are welcome.

Atheists - why didn't you guys jump on this and ask for evidence that god exists?

(November 7, 2017 at 4:12 pm)alpha male Wrote: Atheists - why didn't you guys jump on this and ask for evidence that god exists?

Because there is no evidence that any of the countless thousands of claimed gods have ever existed.

Why ask for that which cannot be provided?

(November 7, 2017 at 4:36 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 4:12 pm)alpha male Wrote: Atheists - why didn't you guys jump on this and ask for evidence that god exists?

Because there is no evidence that any of the countless thousands of claimed gods have ever existed.

Why ask for that which cannot be provided?

Ask the atheists, as whenever one of them starts a thread on some biblical topic, it's only a matter of time until another one comes in and asks for evidence of god's existence.

(November 7, 2017 at 3:25 pm)Harry Nevis Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 2:59 pm)SteveII Wrote: No, free will created sin. Sin is the absence of good. Just like no one created darkness. 
Foreknowledge in no way means control. The fact that you won't choose differently does not mean you couldn't have. God simply knows what every free creature would choose and would not choose (counterfactuals) to do in any given circumstances. There are different theological perspectives and I am arguing/answering from my own.

If he knows I will repent on my deathbed, and I don't, either he didn't know or he was wrong.

Since god created good,and he (and he admits it) created evil, he is responsible for the existence of sin.
Sin is the absence of good only to you guys.  It doesn't exist outside if the bible.

Your statement is just a contradiction. He does not know because he has seen you do it, he knows because he knows what you would freely choose give circumstances x y and z. Important in this knowledge is he knows true counterfactuals--what you would have done if  x, y or z were different. 

God could not admit creating evil because by definition it is the deprivation of good. How can someone create a negative? You are barking up the wrong tree. Yes, he is responsible for the possibility of sin, but you are just complaining about the definition of free will. 

Exactly. So we are the ones that get to define it.

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(November 7, 2017 at 4:48 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 4:36 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: Because there is no evidence that any of the countless thousands of claimed gods have ever existed.

Why ask for that which cannot be provided?

Ask the atheists, as whenever one of them starts a thread on some biblical topic, it's only a matter of time until another one comes in and asks for evidence of god's existence.

Always! That's why I cut and paste:

A quick reminder of definitions:
Evidence refers to pieces of information or facts that help us establish the truth of something. Proof is a conclusion about the truth of something after analyzing the evidence. Evidence is suggestive of a conclusion. Proof is concrete and conclusive. Proof can have different thresholds. Anywhere from more likely than not (preponderance of the evidence), to beyond a reasonable doubt, to absolute. These are all arrived at by considering evidence.

So, to say that I have no evidence is simply wrong. What you mean is that in your opinion, it is not proof. That's fine, I don't care what your opinion is.

The evidence that I believe that supports my belief (another opinion) is below:

1. Person of Jesus is compelling.
2. The NT describes actual events including the miracles, life, death and resurrection of Jesus.
3. God works in people's lives today--changing people on the inside as well as the occurrence of miracles.
4. The natural theology arguments:
a. God is the best explanation why anything at all exists.
b. God is the best explanation of the origin of the universe.
c. God is the best explanation of the fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life.
d. God is the best explanation of intentional states of consciousness.
e. God is the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.

Since you cannot 'prove' that any of these are falsely held beliefs, my conclusion (opinion) that God exists is rationale. The amount of evidence meets my personal threshold for proof that God exists.