(November 7, 2017 at 6:31 pm)Mathilda Wrote: OK well at least I know what you are getting at now.

Personally I think that this is overthinking it. The discussion is about whether morality is objective or subjective and it's very easy to take it out of scope. These are common place terms, not strict scientific definitions. But as with anything philosophical, disagreement always seems to come when people apply a different scope for the definitions that they use. My yardstick is whether a definition is useful. I am not particularly interested in arguing semantics and fleshing out at what point a concept is no longer useful.

Me thinking about shit is overthinking by reference to the average christer by default.  They want to talk to us about pixies.  Sometimes, I want a more substantive discussion. 

Quote:The scope we're arguing here is waaay beyond the kind of debate about subjective vs objective morality that religionists think about. They seem to have some sort of idea of some ethereal force that exists as part of some cosmic battle of good vs evil. They can't ever measure evil or even have a clear concept of what it could possibly be. Like a soul, a god or free will, it's a vague undefinable concept that they can believe in because it can't be tested. Yet while advocating an objective morality, theists can only ever pass judgement on the morality of an action based on their own neural conditioning. It's that which i object to, not to the extent of which objective facts rely on neural processing.

All of those things are the reasons that their moral systems are not objective ones, if objective moral systems exist in the first place.  Believers are, easily, the -worst- advocates of objective morality. Objective moral theory, as a discipline in philosophy..is currently crammed full of atheists, lol. They're the ones writings the textbooks and submitting their work for review. Unsurprising, really:

Any attempt at a god-based objective moral theory fails at the first step...demonstration of it's fundamental unit of measurement. God. Even if they could demonstrate that (and I wouldn't hold my breath) all of their work would still be ahead of them...as then they have the herculean task of transforming the subjectivity of god as lawgiver into an objective moral statement without simultaneously eradicating any need or use for god in their theory.

(November 7, 2017 at 6:31 pm)Mathilda Wrote: The scope we're arguing here is waaay beyond the kind of debate about subjective vs objective morality that religionists think about. They seem to have some sort of idea of some ethereal force that exists as part of some cosmic battle of good vs evil. extent of which objective facts rely on neural processing.

Yes. In other words: Moral ontology. Absolute bunk.

So unjust suffering is okay because god deems it honorable? This is not a good argument.

That's the trouble.  We're not being told that it's okay...just that..after raping us, the rapist will give us a popsicle.  

At least human rapists give the little girl the popsicle upfront.

(November 7, 2017 at 2:01 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 1:55 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Totally.  That's why it's fine to let starving babies starve, to step over the homeless guy on the street to buy your $10 Starbucks latte, or to tear holes in the ozone and pretend it never happened because it can increase corporate revenues by 25%.

. . . or not to take your meds.

Strawman. The beatitudes of Christianity specifically call us to feed the hungry, care for the sick, etc. 

As for not taking your meds, you are referring to a fringe group of Christians, none of which are even on this forum, and that's not really fair. There are entire Christian hospitals out there.

Why would you address those issues?  Do they represent an imperfect and evil state in the human condition?  Then God is imperfect and probably partly evil, or lacks the power to prevent evil in the world-- and is therefore pretty much useless.

Are they really just a temporary trial by which their souls will be purified, and their rewards in heaven so great that their suffering in the grand scheme of things is irrelevant or even good?  Then why feed them or care for them?



The reality is much much simpler: suffering is generally seen as bad, and we try to help alleviate others' suffering if it doesn't put us out too much.  It has nothing to do with God.

A popsicle is your analogy to eternal worth and love and praise of the patience and strength of the sufferrer and the vision of God seeing him through loving judgment and perception, and is your analogy to the honour gained in patience resolve and serenity... then that popsicle is worth it, so as to those degrees of honor is worth everything in this perishing world.

And God doesn't want injustice on anyone from anyone, but he rewards patience in adversity of facing oppression, and those who hold on to God, there is nothing to fear or lose.

Now you're just negotiating over the price for the rape of a child, Mystic.

Good job.

How about all the popsicles -and- a pony? No reason to be stingy..this is god after all. A similar discussion must have occurred in Big Mo's tent as regarded the price for Abu Bakrs daughter. Apparently, the chance to be sultan of the caliphate was sufficient payment. Awfully short of heaven, but good enough for him.

For the record, I, at least, am not saying suffering is "good." Suffering is not good, and it is our moral duty to try to alleviate the suffering of others.

I can't answer why God allows suffering in the world. At least not the suffering that isn't caused by other people's actions. But what I do know is that I believe God is good and that we are eternal. And so whatever temporary suffering we endure during this life time, our existence is still worth it for eternity in happiness.

You can only mean that you're willing to trade the suffering of others so that -you- might get into heaven.  

We don't all get the invite, afterall. How very high minded of you to be so giving with our lives, and so accommodating to our future torturer.

(November 7, 2017 at 8:58 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Now you're just negotiating over the price for the rape of a child, Mystic.

Good job.

How about all the popsicles -and- a pony?  No reason to be stingy..this is god after all.  A similar discussion must have occurred in Bog Mo's tent as regarded the price for Abu Bakrs daughter.  Apparently, the chance to be sultan of the caliphate was sufficient payment.  Awfully short of heaven, but good enough for him.

The price is the rapist is himself an eternal hell for his evil and he will have to live with himself, and will suffer through his own states which will manifested in flames and stench and disgusting drink all one thing worse pain ever.

I am talking about the good of the patience. The patience is worth it, and it's equal to gratitude of love.

It's the same, love takes on form of patience when faced with suffering and takes on the form of gratitude when favoured. Obviously, God wanted humanity to be in the latter, but the honorable position of patience is worth any sufferring.

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending how you look at, all sufferring is due to what we earned, all corruption in land and sea is from what we have earned.

This is just giving us a portion of what we have earned, and the righteous suffer only due sins of the unjust, and we are in this together, whether you like it or not.

Yeah quit whinning about the world, God sent Messengers to they rise for justice, and peace be established, and all physical and mental and spiritual diseases and illnesses be cured.

But they responded badly... 

We choose to be grateful or patient.

When God relieved believers out of oppression, in the past, they always turned ungrateful for how they treated the successors of those saviours. Like Moses and children of Israel.

There was a few exceptions and out of the people mentioned in Quran, only people of Yonus stayed grateful and benefited.


I am telling you God and some people are trying their best to help. You choose to be a helper on side of truthful or you can just follow your desires without guidance from the only Judge who can show you who you are and what you're meant to be.