(November 7, 2017 at 11:34 pm)pool the matey Wrote:

Whateverist Wrote:So perhaps what you're calling objective morality is what we normals acknowledge as morally permissible or not.

Is killing innocents morally permissible? No? Then why do you fund bombings that kill innocents?... The problem with "what we normals acknowledge as morally permissible or not" is it's bendable because we created it. One minute it's not okay to murder innocent babies, next minute it is, but if you look at objective morality it can't change for our purpose, it's the same from the beginning of time to the end of time because that's what God intended for us so you can't really "bend the rules" because the rules is God's will and we don't get to change God's will, in the other case ("what we normals acknowledge as morally permissible or not") it is not God's will it is OUR will ie, it's humans will and humans are subject to evil, so by effect what we acknowledge as morally permissible can also change and it can also change for the worse.

Edit: Also a answer for Mr.Wizard that asked a question earlier

Not addressed to you and completely unrelated to any of that.  You humble religious people never have any difficulty talking on behalf of your nonexistent secret friend.

(November 7, 2017 at 11:59 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: If the holy book is believed to be "coming from God", then why do I need the pope or the doctrine written by priests and monks? I should read what claimed to be the word of God directly. Why put a mediator between me and heaven?

It's class A dodging of questions; giving the Church full control over peoples' lives

Don't ask me.....ask them.  I doubt it matters, though..to be completely honest.  None of you seem to be content with your magic books regardless of where..or from whom, they came.  

It's the one thing about all of you that I can completely empathize with. 

It kinda disgusts me when anyone thinks that it wouldn't be preferable if the world had never existed, as if the beauty and love in the world makes up for the utter horror in the world. It really actually disgusts me. I know it would be unrealistic for me to ever expect many people to agree with me that a non-existent world is better than a world in which the most horrific things happen. But I do feel incredibly disgusted about that fact, that the majority of people think anything can be worth it. I ask myself "Has anyone actually THOUGHT about the unthinkable? Because if they did surely they would realize that nothing is worth it unless they're completely heartless."

No heaven or eternal paradise would be worth it either.

EDIT: Okay . . . let's try and make it easier. Imagine you're God right now. Imagine the world doesn't exist yet. You have the choice to make a world that has both child rape and animal torture in it, and also love, flowers, sex and beautiful music. Do you make that world?

Doesn't really matter whether or not it's a better world, or whether or not someone thinks it's worth it.  Like I said earlier, all we're doing is haggling over the price for the rape of a child.  It's been a historically common pasttime of the religious.

God is evil, but he takes care of his buddies. Unsurprising, that's what all tinpot dictators do. That's pretty much the only way to get people to support you if you're a massive asshole. That and fear..obviously, let's not forget the power of scaring the living shit out of people from the time that they're children.

I think it does matter what people think when we're discussing morality and the problem of evil.

Agreed there are worst things then being aborted . Like living in a world were a woman body is not her own . And the state and anti choice fanatics are the masters .

And their are states to which none existence  is preferable (like the one Christians describe for instance good thing we don't live in that universe )

Abortion would be an improvement for any life that wasn't worth living.

(November 7, 2017 at 11:37 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 11:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, we don't teach that in Catholicism.

Yes; you do:
http://christinprophecy.org/articles/whe...saved-die/

Quote:Those from Hades are going to be judged based on their works, but without the saving work of Jesus Christ — the only work that matters, they will be found wanting. God’s the perfect litmus test, and so no matter how good our works have been, they just cannot add up to God’s standard of perfection. Everyone who tells you that you have to work your way to Heaven is lying to you, because the Bible says otherwise in Ephesians 2:8-9. Jesus’ work on the cross is the only work that matters, and our response in faith.

3) Hell
When they are all found guilty, their next and final destination is a place called Hell. Revelation 20:14-15 explains that awful sentence of condemnation, “Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire.” The Lake of Fire is called the Second Death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the books of Life, they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/...ecnum=4275

Quote:Looking At The Evidence

Turning to Scripture, we find the doctrine of eternal damnation to be one of the most persistent themes in the New Testament, especially in the teaching of Christ himself. The Old Testament has little about life after death, but even there grim warnings are given of retribution for sin. The book of Daniel predicts: "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."[size=undefined]1[/size]

Our Lord declares: " . . . whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."[size=undefined]2[/size] He tells us that on the Last Day many will remind him they had done mighty works in his name, but he will say to them: "I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers."[size=undefined]3[/size] He warns his disciples: " . . . fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell."[size=undefined]4[/size] He declares that it is better " . . . to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire."[size=undefined]5[/size] He adds that in hell ". . . their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."[size=undefined]6[/size] The parable of the net holding good and bad fish ends with the statement that the angels will separate the evil from the good "and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."[size=undefined]7[/size] The same fate for the wicked is given in the parable of the tares and the wheat.[size=undefined]8[/size]

But it's not cool to say it during preaching to non-christians; so you prefer to not open the topic. Old crusaders and some extremists use it to scare people into the faith.
Sunni and Shiite twelver Muslims do it too.

Give people what they want to hear. That's the rule of the game.

It's always funny when someone of a different religion tries to tell me what mine teaches lol.

The first site you posted, I took a look at, and it wasn't even a Catholic site. A quick look at it showed a pretty fundamentalist, fire and brimstines, type of Christianity. Not Catholicism. Heck, im sure they are the type of christians who think catholics are going to hell, no doubt. I see they were also talking about the rapture and stuff lol... yeah, you found a doozy my friend. But that's an A+ for effort.

The second site was a Catholic site, and a very conservative one by the looks of it, but even still, nowhere on there did the author say that atheists and those of other faiths go to Hell. The official Catholic teaching on this is that we simply don't know and can't say because it is impossible for us to judge the soul of another.

(For future reference, if you want to know the official Catholic position on something, look at the Catechism. The whole thing is online, so a quick Google search should turn up what you need.)

Yes, yes it would...and did...................................

You know..there was a moment before the dragon swallowed jonah, there, where it was just kind of lurking, right under the water, and jonah didn't see it.

That's pretty much what the catechism is like for catholics nowadays. Always ready to swallow them up, but they wouldn't believe you if you told them it was there.

(November 8, 2017 at 12:13 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 7, 2017 at 11:37 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: Yes; you do:
http://christinprophecy.org/articles/whe...saved-die/



https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/...ecnum=4275



But it's not cool to say it during preaching to non-christians; so you prefer to not open the topic. Old crusaders and some extremists use it to scare people into the faith.
Sunni and Shiite twelver Muslims do it too.

Give people what they want to hear. That's the rule of the game.

It's always funny when someone of a different religion tries to tell me what mine teaches lol.

The first site you posted, I took a look at, and it wasn't even a Catholic site. A quick look at it showed a pretty fundamentalist, fire and brimstines, type of Christianity. Talking about the rapture and stuff lol... yeah, you found a doozy my friend. But that's an A+ for effort.

The second site was a Catholic site, and a very conservative one by the looks of it, but even still, nowhere on there did the author say that atheists and those of other faiths go to Hell. The official Catholic teaching on this is that we simply don't know and can't say because it is impossible for us to judge the soul of another.

For future reference, if you want to know the official Catholic position on something, look at the Catechism. The whole thing is online, so a quick Google search should turn up what you need.

Okay. What about Wikipedia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_...atholicism

Quote:The Catechism of the Catholic Church which, when published in 1992, Pope John Paul II declared to be "a sure norm for teaching the faith",[43] defines hell as eternal fiery punishment for refusing to love God:

It's not funny at all. It's sad.

Your religion is not a personal property; CL. The Church tried to make it so; and got defeated eventually at the hands of secular movements in the 18th century. In the Middle East Islamic centeres are facing a similar defeat also. That's why missionary business changed its language in this age: it tries to win people not through fear -like old times-, but through "love".

Religion is not a personal property. I can read yours, detect faults in it, just like I read mine and detected the wrongs in it. Mine being Sunni Islam before I put sects behind my back. With their missionaries.