Still waiting.....

(November 8, 2017 at 8:51 am)Aroura Wrote:

(November 8, 2017 at 5:57 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: I gave my belief about kid suffering:



I said it in a previous topic too about handicapped people; that their disability serves a purpose, and not just a waste of life, caused by a natural "error".

God can cause the death of kids. Humans don't have that right.

You totally didn't answer my question.  I'll ask one more time.

Main question: How is it fair that some people, like children, don't have to take the test to get eternal life, while others do? 

Also, does god not test everyone?  Why or Why not?  Also, does god tell you all of this personally, or are you just giving us your best guesses?  Be honest.
(I'm assuming you think children have souls and join god when they die, not that they are just props to give YOUR life more meaning, which is kinda what your answer sounds like).

Please try and address my questions, instead of wondering off topic.  Thanks.

I didn't see this comment. I went back and searched for it.

The children might not be resurrected. If we said they don't have complete minds, then it's totally legit to say that they are not legitimate judging subjects. I believe that they are a reminder for us all, of how things could've been if  we were to suffer like them.

I think it's an interesting question, and I didn't think in depth about it before. But if I guessed, then the people are a property of God; that's why he refers to us with "slaves" in the Quran. As his slaves; we are his property, so he can create some to act as decorations; a reminder for the rest. That makes the test get glued and manifests.

God is a scary being. When I think about a God that created everything, and perfect in everything, I tend to think he is also perfect in shock and awe. He is that scary. He is the example of perfect mercy and beauty too.

He is everything.

Save

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(November 8, 2017 at 8:53 am)LadyForCamus Wrote:

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@Atlas

There is a difference between one's personal beliefs, and what their religious doctrine states.  You can say, 'you aren't really following Catholicism then, if you don't believe what the doctrine and holy texts say, and that's a separate discussion.  But you don't get to tell someone what they do or don't personally believe.

No; there is none if the person is considering the doctrine to be a personal property.
I say it a lot and almost in most of my comments: "It's my own; personal way; I don't talk in the name of all Muslims".
I don't see CL doing that.

What you're saying, LFC, is a very basic and cunning way to dodge criticism: like hey; the bad are them! not me, don't criticize me! I'm different !!

Don't hide, don't dodge, and take responsibility for your choice of belief. That's all I ask. But hanging to a broad cliff like that to escape possible criticism, is just wrong and quite hypocritical.

What you're describing as god doesn't sound like perfection or mercy, Atlass.  It sounds like petty cruelty.  Particularly and recognizably -human- petty cruelty.

That god, is the evil god of the PoE. Or, more likely, a reflection of the shitty person who imagined it.

(November 8, 2017 at 9:05 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Furthermore, you're claiming that Wikipedia says "Catholic clergy" said that all non christians go to hell. But it doesnt say that. I read it twice, and also asked you to copy and paste where it says that on wiki. Which you haven't done. ...Atlas is making stuff up about what Catholicism teaches.

Official Catholic doctrine is that those outside the Church who have "perfect contrition" will be saved.

I like you Whateverist and I want to say I don't believe you are a disbeliever. It takes time for proofs to sink in...and I hope with time, you will understand and believe.

Almost one accepts proofs right away, it takes time to digest.

The context of disbelief in Quran is only when the proof is conveyed and then people turn away from it, there are so many verses to this and people without means or access to this proof are not judged harshly but most likely forgiven, and I am not convinced I have done a good job conveying it.

And in this age, the truth is hidden, Quran was at a point easy to understand but due to the propaganda regarding it and the injustice of the people who testify to it regarding it, I don't blame people for not knowing it well or not going to study it in depth.

I am not a Messenger nor a Prophet nor a Leader appointed by God, I will not act like I have conveyed the authority of God to the extent everyone here is aware.

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(November 8, 2017 at 12:21 pm)Khemikal Wrote: What you're describing as god doesn't sound like perfection or mercy, Atlass.  It sounds like petty cruelty.  Particularly and recognizably -human- petty cruelty.

That god, is the evil god of the PoE.  Or, more likely, a reflection of the shitty person who imagined it.

God is the cruellest people to evil in the sense he is the severest in punishment, but he forbears and forgives and wants to save people from his wrath, and in the place of compassion and pardon, is most compassionate and merciful, and in the place of exacting punishment and vengeance is in severest in it as well.

That makes sense that ultimate love of goodness would hate evil the most and ultimate love of goodness would in the proper place of compassion and pardon, but the most loving and compassionate in it.

(November 8, 2017 at 12:21 pm)Khemikal Wrote: What you're describing as god doesn't sound like perfection or mercy, Atlass.  It sounds like petty cruelty.  Particularly and recognizably -human- petty cruelty.

That god, is the evil god of the PoE.  Or, more likely, a reflection of the shitty person who imagined it.

To you maybe. What is a pity, is human cruelty. Disgusting, tiny weak humans who throw explosive tantrums from airplanes and consider that to be "cruel".
When the sun burns you; it's hard to hate it. It's so idiotic to become racist against black holes.

I think the real shitty standards are human standards. And human ego that equalized the pain human inflict to the pain God might inflict; the mercy God gives to the pity mercy humans give.

(November 8, 2017 at 12:30 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(November 8, 2017 at 9:05 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Furthermore, you're claiming that Wikipedia says "Catholic clergy" said that all non christians go to hell. But it doesnt say that. I read it twice, and also asked you to copy and paste where it says that on wiki. Which you haven't done. ...Atlas is making stuff up about what Catholicism teaches.

Official Catholic doctrine is that those outside the Church who have "perfect contrition" will be saved.

Yes. And since we cannot see into a person's soul, see their motives, their intentions, their thoughts, culpability, etc, we cannot say "Bob went to Hell because he is atheist/Muslim/Jew/whatever else."

(November 8, 2017 at 10:13 am)Aroura Wrote: Still waiting.....

Aroura, do you remember my greater design perspective response to evil while a Deist. I made a thread particularly to address the issue of children dying and suffering.

If you are interested, I can open a thread regarding that.

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(November 8, 2017 at 12:46 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 8, 2017 at 12:30 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Official Catholic doctrine is that those outside the Church who have "perfect contrition" will be saved.

Yes. And since we cannot see into a person's soul, see their motives, their intentions, their thoughts, culpability,  etc, we cannot say "Bob went to Hell because he is atheist/Muslim/Jew/whatever else."

This a rational stance but there are exceptions, some people like Hitler we should say is definitely going to hell.

Anyways, I know you meant it in a general sense, just wanted to point this out.

@Contrition
Which is an amusing bit of fine print, since perfect contrition requires absolute hatred of sin...but ofc "sin" is defined by the RCC...so, they're unlikely to perfectly hate all the "sinful" shit the RCC describes as such......what with not being catholic and all.

I, personally, think that the unofficial (but officially entertained) idea of "vicarious baptism by desire" - in which those who..by the rules, should go to hell, might not...provided that the parents really -wanted- to have their little darling baptized...is an even neater trick.  Apparently, there's nothing worth doing that can't be done by someone else on your behalf.  

Then, ofc, there's the caveat that salvation only comes through christ, is limited to christ...but christ is not limited to that act in bestowing grace.  He can save any sinner he wants to.  

Makes you wonder why they came up with rules in the first place, what with there being a loophole for every single one of them.  It;s almost as if people with functioning brain cells have been shooting holes in the story since the first priest peddled it.

(November 8, 2017 at 12:30 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:

(November 8, 2017 at 9:05 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Furthermore, you're claiming that Wikipedia says "Catholic clergy" said that all non christians go to hell. But it doesnt say that. I read it twice, and also asked you to copy and paste where it says that on wiki. Which you haveIn't done. ...Atlas is making stuff up about what Catholicism teaches.

Official Catholic doctrine is that those outside the Church who have "perfect contrition" will be saved.

Actually; it looks like it says everything; depending on the situation.
That's why people revolted against the Church; remember?