(November 9, 2017 at 2:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

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(November 9, 2017 at 12:53 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: So, sorry if this sounds dickish, Abraham couldnt get into heaven in that case?

What do you mean?

You may not be a literal bible believer, I don't know. When I was raised Catholic in school, not by my parents because they didn't believe, some believers tried to teach me the bible was alegory and poetic guidelines, others told me it was literall truth and yet others said it was a combination. But in either case, the underlying idea remains, doesn't it?

God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac to him.
And he was going to do it. He was ready for that. In any other case we might call that psychopathic, evil and monstrous.
Bottom line is Abraham had "a heart dark enough to kill innocent people and children"; his innocent son. He didn't do it, but only because God stopped him the last second after seeing in Abraham's heart that he would have.

-and...ofc....god had a heart dark enough to tell a man who had a heart dark enough to kill a child.

That's how death squads work.

(November 9, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 2:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

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What do you mean?

You may not be a literal bible believer, I don't know. When I was raised Catholic in school, not by my parents because they didn't believe, some believers tried to teach me the bible was alegory and poetic guidelines, others told me it was literall truth and yet others said it was a combination. But in either case, the underlying idea remains, doesn't it?

God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac to him.
And he was going to do it. He was ready for that. In any other case we might call that psychopathic, evil and monstrous.
Bottom line is Abraham had "a heart dark enough to kill innocent people and children"; his innocent son. He didn't do it, but only because God stopped him the last second after seeing in Abraham's heart that he would have.

Catholics are free to believe in either an allegorical or literal interpretation of the Old Testament. In my Catholic school, we were taught as though it were all allegory, and that's the stance I continue to take.

Let's suppose for arguments sake that God's voice sounded from the skies and told Abraham to kill his son, and then told him not to.

I'd say Abraham's culpability is mitigated due to the fact that he was obeying God Himself. He certainly didn't *want* to do it, but felt backed into a wall when, heck, God Himself is telling him to do it. His thinking was "well God gave me this child when i asked Him for one, now He is asking for the child back." While I completely disagree and wouldn't do the same thing in a million years, I wouldn't guess that Abraham has an evil heart for it, either.

No, catholics are not...though many catholics take such a liberty.

Quote:390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265

As far as evil hearts.  Many children have been sarificed to pagan gods...en mass.  The aztec would sacrifice so many at a time that the blood couldn't even seep down into the sand and would pool up at the base of the temple, which was itself intentionally built as a giant blood sluice.....and sand is porous as shit.  They did this to keep the sun lit...to keep the world from ending...for the good of all of us*. Hitler did what he did for the good of the german people. God does what he does so that some of us can get cake, at the end.......maybe. How's their culpability affected, from a catholic point of view? Shall we check the catechism, again...........

*

-as a sidenote...none of you have the heart to tell her I;m quoting catechism every time she posts, do you? Softies...lol.

(November 9, 2017 at 4:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 4:06 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: You may not be a literal bible believer, I don't know. When I was raised Catholic in school, not by my parents because they didn't believe, some believers tried to teach me the bible was alegory and poetic guidelines, others told me it was literall truth and yet others said it was a combination. But in either case, the underlying idea remains, doesn't it?

God told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac to him.
And he was going to do it. He was ready for that. In any other case we might call that psychopathic, evil and monstrous.
Bottom line is Abraham had "a heart dark enough to kill innocent people and children"; his innocent son. He didn't do it, but only because God stopped him the last second after seeing in Abraham's heart that he would have.

Catholics are free to believe in either an allegorical or literal interpretation of the Old Testament. In my Catholic school, we were taught as though it were all allegory, and that's the stance I continue to take.

Let's suppose for arguments sake that God's voice sounded from the skies and told Abraham to kill his son, and then told him not to.

I'd say Abraham's culpability is mitigated due to the fact that he was obeying God Himself. He certainly didn't *want* to do it, but felt backed into a wall when, heck, God Himself is telling him to do it. His thinking was "well God gave me this child when i asked Him for one, now He is asking for the child back." While I completely disagree and wouldn't do the same thing in a million years, I wouldn't guess that Abraham has an evil heart for it, either.

Then by that logic, if Hitler thought he was doing Gods will, doesn't that absolve him of any blame? Whether or not he believed it, in many instances he profiled himself and his movement Christian, catholic even, and doing the lord's bidding. Could've been lying and manipulative about it, , but he could have honestly been convinced that what he was doing was God's work. I'm pretty sure he thought it was necessary and right, in his mind in any case. And even if he didn't believe he was followign the lord's command, by profiling his movement as such those in the Nazi party under him who believed in the Christian God found justification for their actions. They probably did heinous things whilst believing it being a holy cause.Just like the crusades of old or even muslim terrorism today.

Or look at it this way. If Abraham had been mistaken. If the devil, supposedly the greatest cheater and lying monster (though created purposefully such by God but that's a rant for another day) had convinced Abraham he was God and that he ordered him to sacrifice his son; would Abraham's culpability still be mitigated? After all, in his heart as honest as could be, he'd still think he was following divine guidance.

(November 9, 2017 at 4:35 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 4:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Catholics are free to believe in either an allegorical or literal interpretation of the Old Testament. In my Catholic school, we were taught as though it were all allegory, and that's the stance I continue to take.

Let's suppose for arguments sake that God's voice sounded from the skies and told Abraham to kill his son, and then told him not to.

I'd say Abraham's culpability is mitigated due to the fact that he was obeying God Himself. He certainly didn't *want* to do it, but felt backed into a wall when, heck, God Himself is telling him to do it. His thinking was "well God gave me this child when i asked Him for one, now He is asking for the child back." While I completely disagree and wouldn't do the same thing in a million years, I wouldn't guess that Abraham has an evil heart for it, either.

Then by that logic, if Hitler thought he was doing Gods will, doesn't that absolve him of any blame? Whether or not he believed it, in many instances he profiled himself and his movement Christian, catholic even, and doing the lord's bidding. Could've been lying and manipulative about it, , but he could have honestly been convinced that what he was doing was God's work. I'm pretty sure he thought it was necessary and right, in his mind in any case. And even if he didn't believe he was followign the lord's command, by profiling his movement as such those in the Nazi party under him who believed in the Christian God found justification for their actions. They probably did heinous things whilst believing it being a holy cause.Just like the crusades of old or even muslim terrorism today.

Or look at it this way. If Abraham had been mistaken. If the devil, supposedly the greatest cheater and lying monster (though created purposefully such by God but that's a rant for another day) had convinced Abraham he was God and that he ordered him to sacrifice his son; would Abraham's culpability still be mitigated? After all, in his heart as honest as could be, he'd still think he was following divine guidance.

If Hitler was insane and hallucinating and hearing a voice telling him to kill millions of people, his culpability probably would be mitigated as well. Id say for reason of insanity. Which is why, as i said, i cant say for sure that hes in Hell. I can make a guess, but cant claim anything. But I highly doubt that was the case. He may have claimed he was doing Gods work in order to get followers or whatever, but I highly doubt he genuinely heard a voice he believed to be God's telling him to kill people.

A tyrant who does "good " Does not absolve him of the evil he does to achieve said "good" ANY god who allows evil or tolerates evil or creates being capable of evil is evil. Regardless of whatever paradise he offers you after you die. And no we don't see the big picture is an excuse not an answer .

Why not? It wouldn't be the first time god commanded his chosen people to engage in ethnic cleansing. Wouldn't even be the third or fourth time.....

(November 9, 2017 at 4:52 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 9, 2017 at 4:35 pm)Mr.Obvious Wrote: Then by that logic, if Hitler thought he was doing Gods will, doesn't that absolve him of any blame? Whether or not he believed it, in many instances he profiled himself and his movement Christian, catholic even, and doing the lord's bidding. Could've been lying and manipulative about it, , but he could have honestly been convinced that what he was doing was God's work. I'm pretty sure he thought it was necessary and right, in his mind in any case. And even if he didn't believe he was followign the lord's command, by profiling his movement as such those in the Nazi party under him who believed in the Christian God found justification for their actions. They probably did heinous things whilst believing it being a holy cause.Just like the crusades of old or even muslim terrorism today.

Or look at it this way. If Abraham had been mistaken. If the devil, supposedly the greatest cheater and lying monster (though created purposefully such by God but that's a rant for another day) had convinced Abraham he was God and that he ordered him to sacrifice his son; would Abraham's culpability still be mitigated? After all, in his heart as honest as could be, he'd still think he was following divine guidance.

If Hitler was insane and hallucinating and hearing a voice telling him to kill millions of people, his culpability probably would be mitigated as well. Id say for reason of insanity. Which is why, as i said, i cant say for sure that hes in Hell. I can make a guess, but cant claim anything. But I highly doubt that was the case. He may have claimed he was doing Gods work in order to get followers or whatever, but I highly doubt he genuinely heard a voice he believed to be God's telling him to kill people.

I don't think one has to think God gives specific talks to you to think you are doing his will. I don't think every catholic nazi, every jihadist, every Westboro baptist church hatemonger, every christian klu klux klan member, ... that did horrible things in the name of God thought God spoke to them specifically. Same could have been with Hitler, without it being a sign of what we lable insanity.

For instance, you may not think God speaks to you directly, right? But I'm guessing you do have your notion of what your God expects you to do. Same concept, just far less extreme. You have your own idea of a Godly life and live by it, accordingly. In your case it just might be rather benign
But that's one of the great problems a lot of atheists have with religion. If you believe God is on your side, in agreement with your preconceived notions aqcuired through your social and natural surroundings and your own genetic make-up as wel as your upbringing, anything becomes excuseable. As long as it is in the name of the lord, nothing is truly evil. Including trying to gut your own son atop a mountaintop.

Praise be Him.