(November 16, 2017 at 10:51 am)SteveII Wrote:

(November 16, 2017 at 3:21 am)Hammy Wrote:

---

And yet the New Testament celebrates it as the most moral thing a single human has ever done.

Jesus wasn't just a human and no one sacrificed him. He paid a price voluntarily. So your point is wrong on multiple counts.

Good thing our courts don't work that way.  Plenty of mothers would take the chair in stead of their murderous sons..but it would be a travesty of justice to allow it. Vicarious redemption is disgusting, and patently untrue. It's the notion that one's own evil can be atoned for by the death of the better man. It puts the ethnic cleansing and sex trafficking of the OT on the back shelf, OT god is a rank amateur when it comes to the immorality of NT god. Made worse still by this sickness being the -entire- message of the NT. Worse, even still...by such base evil being transformed into piety and goodness in the minds of the faithful.

When moses told pharaoh to let his people go..I doubt that he was primarily concerned with the welfare of the rapists and the murderers...but these are the only people to whom the offer of vicarious redemption -can- apply. A good man has no need of a human sacrifice, the people of christ can be nothing other than degenerate sinners..damaged, if nothing else, by their acceptance of the offer itself.

Perhaps that's just another way god tests us, and won't you be disappointed when god tells you that you should have known better?

(November 16, 2017 at 11:48 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(November 16, 2017 at 10:51 am)SteveII Wrote: Jesus wasn't just a human and no one sacrificed him. He paid a price voluntarily. So your point is wrong on multiple counts.

Good thing our courts don't work that way.  Plenty of mothers would take the chair in stead of their murderous sons..but it would be a travesty of justice to allow it.  Vicarious redemption is disgusting, and patently untrue.  It's the notion that one's own evil can be atoned for by the death of the better man.  It puts the ethnic cleansing and sex trafficking of the OT on the back shelf, OT god is a rank amateur when it comes to the immorality of NT god.  Made worse still by this sickness being the -entire- message of the NT.

Oh, but it's not 'justice'; it's a 'gift'.

Of course, if you decline the gift you get what's coming to you. 

Divine Command Theory... L O fucking L

(November 16, 2017 at 11:57 am)KevinM1 Wrote: Divine Command Theory... L O fucking L

That's the fancy philosophical jargon given by the religious Eichmanns of the world, who aren't bright enough to recognize propaganda when it's staring them in the face.

(November 16, 2017 at 11:52 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote:

(November 16, 2017 at 11:48 am)Khemikal Wrote: Good thing our courts don't work that way.  Plenty of mothers would take the chair in stead of their murderous sons..but it would be a travesty of justice to allow it.  Vicarious redemption is disgusting, and patently untrue.  It's the notion that one's own evil can be atoned for by the death of the better man.  It puts the ethnic cleansing and sex trafficking of the OT on the back shelf, OT god is a rank amateur when it comes to the immorality of NT god.  Made worse still by this sickness being the -entire- message of the NT.

Oh, but it's not 'justice'; it's a 'gift'.

Of course, if you decline the gift you get what's coming to you. 

If I opened a pretty box with a fancy bow and it had a fucking cottonmouth in it...that's less a gift than a declaration of war...to my mind. God presumably knows where I am, he can come and give me "what's coming to me" whenever it's convenient. I;m not going to hold my breath. The guys a known bullshitter, who writes checks his ass can't cash. His about 2k years over due on his last bounce.

(November 16, 2017 at 11:48 am)Khemikal Wrote: A good man has no need of a human sacrifice, the people of christ can be nothing other than degenerate sinners... damaged, if nothing else, by their acceptance of the offer itself. {emphasis mine}

I consider acceptance of the Jesus sacrifice to be the real "mark of the beast" because of how it dehumanizes.  Not only must a believer accept the nonsensical slander of Original Sin; he must also abrogate morality, common sense and decency by consenting to have someone else take the punishment he supposedly deserves.

Yup..but it;s easy to see why the offer is appealing to a certain subset.  If they truly believe that hellfire awaits....then it's extortion through fear and self loathing.  We do all sorts of fucked up shit on that count.  Our moral agency is demonstrably compromised by all three.

The author of the universe would certainly know that (we do, after all)..and so it's hard not to assign the lions share of blame to the extortionist, regardless of whether it's a god or just a priest pretending to know the mind of one.

Obviously, I think it's the latter...but my assessment would be the same if it really were the former. No matter who did the screwing, a christians mind has been screwed with..and it's not pretty or kind or justifiable. The effect is hardly surprising...and nothing about it is remotely decent or good.

(November 16, 2017 at 12:19 pm)Astreja Wrote: I consider acceptance of the Jesus sacrifice to be the real "mark of the beast" because of how it dehumanizes.  Not only must a believer accept the nonsensical slander of Original Sin;

No, I'm condemned on my own sin.

Quote:he must also abrogate morality, common sense and decency by consenting to have someone else take the punishment he supposedly deserves.

Characterize it however you want, but yeah, if I can get a free pass, I'm taking it.

(November 16, 2017 at 12:42 pm)alpha male Wrote: No, I'm condemned on my own sin.

Yeah...that's -exactly- what Astreja just expressed.........

Quote:Characterize it however you want, but yeah, if I can get a free pass, I'm taking it.

There's your sin.  You'll shirk your culpability rather than own it....and the manner in which you hope this can be accomplished is nothing less than horrific.  There are far less shitty ways to be immoral and irresponsible, if that's the way you want to go. My kids can manage both without killing a single jew. I expect more from them by the time they reach the age of accountability...and when they inevitably express a stronger moral character than you could ever hope to muster..it still won;t be entirely your fault. You just weren't raised right.

Smokey the Bear knew more about responsibility than the lord of the cosmos does..apparently. Only you, Alpha...can prevent that fire, but you're actually going to have to do something about it, put in the effort. There's nobody else out there to put it out for you.

(November 16, 2017 at 11:21 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: "Jebus" instead of "Jesus", is about as disrespectful as, "Santie" instead of "Santa", lol.

Or Hovind's referring to Darwin as 'Charlie'. Hell, I've seen certain theists on here being just as disrespectful, to Shakespeare, 'Brits', you name it. But say 'Jebus' and they lose all their shit.

Well, not all of it, but you get my meaning.