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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 16, 2017 at 6:08 pm
(This post was last modified: November 16, 2017 at 6:17 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 16, 2017 at 5:44 pm)SteveII Wrote: (November 16, 2017 at 5:13 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Oh...you misunderstand, it's not necessarily immoral for -him- to make the attempt, even doomed to failure as it always would have been..it's immoral for -you- to accept. Your imaginary friends moral agency isn't under scrutiny here..yours is. Glad to clear that up.
That the better man might lay his life down for your mortgage evading ass isn't exactly all that surprising. That you would would accept the death of the better man and think that this was good, otoh...is. That's the kind of idea that can only come from a person you can never turn your back on. The kind of person that would feed you to the wolves to save his own skin. The kind of person decidedly -unlike- the sacrifice in question.
You are making a category error (among other errors). Jesus was not a man so a comparison is silly. God himself came down to bridge the gap between his holiness and our sin. He is the only one that could have done that. We cannot even pay with our lives to make that happen (a debt is an incomplete metaphor). Accepting his offer in no way infers a lack of character, because paying your own way was never an option. Novel christology, you might want to check your cult to see if you're presenting an accurate representation of your beliefs.... but it doesn't actually matter whether you're okay with killing the better man or the better porcupine. If paying your way was never an option, if whatever you've done is -that- bad..then you should accept the consequences, rather than hoping that a fistful of blood money might bail you out. That's what a moral, responsible person does.
We've already established that you're neither, though, haven't we...sufficiently expressed in your very acceptence? You're a cynical opportunist, out to get whatever you can by any means available. Including the brutal torture and death of some random jew. Do you really believe that the author of goodness would feel anything but contempt for you, in this?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 16, 2017 at 7:07 pm
(November 16, 2017 at 5:13 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Oh...you misunderstand, it's not necessarily immoral for -him- to make the attempt, even doomed to failure as it always would have been..it's immoral for -you- to accept. Your imaginary friends moral agency isn't under scrutiny here..yours is. Glad to clear that up.
That the better man might lay his life down for your mortgage evading ass isn't exactly all that surprising. That you would would accept the death of the better man and think that this was good, otoh...is. That's the kind of idea that can only come from a person you can never turn your back on. The kind of person that would feed you to the wolves to save his own skin. The kind of person decidedly -unlike- the sacrifice in question.
the kind of person who thinks it righteous to sacrifice his daughters to a mob of lustful men.
Show me a man's god and I'll show you the man.
See the first sentence in my sig.
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 16, 2017 at 7:29 pm
(November 16, 2017 at 6:08 pm)Khemikal Wrote: (November 16, 2017 at 5:44 pm)SteveII Wrote: You are making a category error (among other errors). Jesus was not a man so a comparison is silly. God himself came down to bridge the gap between his holiness and our sin. He is the only one that could have done that. We cannot even pay with our lives to make that happen (a debt is an incomplete metaphor). Accepting his offer in no way infers a lack of character, because paying your own way was never an option. Novel christology, you might want to check your cult to see if you're presenting an accurate representation of your beliefs.... but it doesn't actually matter whether you're okay with killing the better man or the better porcupine. If paying your way was never an option, if whatever you've done is -that- bad..then you should accept the consequences, rather than hoping that a fistful of blood money might bail you out. That's what a moral, responsible person does.
We've already established that you're neither, though, haven't we...sufficiently expressed in your very acceptence? You're a cynical opportunist, out to get whatever you can by any means available. Including the brutal torture and death of some random jew. Do you really believe that the author of goodness would feel anything but contempt for you, in this?
I believe the author of goodness "...so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life." Forgive me if I believe him and not an some random atheist on the internet with a warped understanding of the atonement.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 16, 2017 at 7:40 pm
(This post was last modified: November 16, 2017 at 7:44 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It doesn't matter whether or not you believe "him"..my criticism of the idea is based upon the polite assumption of it's truth for the sake of discussion, not the factual realization that it's complete horseshit.
If it were true..it would be even more immoral, not less. At present it only stands as bad fiction that people believe - and that's it's only saving grace.
You have told me that some despot will give me cake if I support the execution of the better man. I inform you that the very idea is morally abhorrent..and what do you respond with?
"But he really will give you cake!"
O-kay........
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 16, 2017 at 9:12 pm
Isn’t it more accurate to say god loaned his son? I mean, he did get better a few days later.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 16, 2017 at 9:21 pm
Seriously. How was it even a meaningful sacrifice? How was it a sacrifice at all? God sent Jesus to us, and then got him right back.
#LFC'sProfoundThoughtsCourtesyofWine 🍷
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 16, 2017 at 9:27 pm
(This post was last modified: November 16, 2017 at 9:27 pm by Astreja.)
(November 16, 2017 at 5:10 pm)alpha male Wrote: Sins were paid off on the cross.
Worst. Economic. System. Ever.
Quote:If a God creates a game, the created would logically do well to play it.
I accept your admission of craven helplessness and resignation in the face of an almost certainly fictional cosmic tyrant. I aspire to greater things, things that your beliefs are incapable of providing me.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 16, 2017 at 9:33 pm
(This post was last modified: November 16, 2017 at 10:43 pm by possibletarian.)
There seems there's a choice of messiahs now, take your pick.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/magaz...ng-photos/
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 16, 2017 at 11:29 pm
(November 16, 2017 at 7:29 pm)SteveII Wrote: (November 16, 2017 at 6:08 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Novel christology, you might want to check your cult to see if you're presenting an accurate representation of your beliefs.... but it doesn't actually matter whether you're okay with killing the better man or the better porcupine. If paying your way was never an option, if whatever you've done is -that- bad..then you should accept the consequences, rather than hoping that a fistful of blood money might bail you out. That's what a moral, responsible person does.
We've already established that you're neither, though, haven't we...sufficiently expressed in your very acceptence? You're a cynical opportunist, out to get whatever you can by any means available. Including the brutal torture and death of some random jew. Do you really believe that the author of goodness would feel anything but contempt for you, in this?
I believe the author of goodness "...so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him won’t perish but will have eternal life." Forgive me if I believe him and not an some random atheist on the internet with a warped understanding of the atonement.
Believe "him"? The author of that Gospel?
No, of course not. You mean "him" as in a character in that Gospel. Forgive me if I stick to a proper approach to reading sources and not take the word of some random Christian with a warped idea of how to read a book.
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RE: Why did god allow people to be born after the fall ?
November 17, 2017 at 7:09 am
(November 16, 2017 at 9:12 pm)KevinM1 Wrote: Isn’t it more accurate to say god loaned his son? I mean, he did get better a few days later.
Setting aside death by crucifixion, what was it like for an omniscient mind to physically bear all the sins of mankind past, present, and future all at the same time? When you think about it, God willing endured something unimaginable to us that would change him (by having the experience) in a less than positive way.
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