(January 4, 2018 at 12:50 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Not one instance of supernatural causation or creation has ever been demonstrated while we are swimming in such instances of natural causation all around us.  

Not one instance of life from non-life has ever been demonstrated, while we are swimming in instances of life from life all around us.

Correction...-at least- one instance has. Here we are..swimming in life, as you put it. That's the entire reason that anyone is studying it. We seek to explain that observation.

(January 4, 2018 at 1:15 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(January 4, 2018 at 12:50 pm)Whateverist Wrote: Not one instance of supernatural causation or creation has ever been demonstrated while we are swimming in such instances of natural causation all around us.  

Not one instance of life from non-life has ever been demonstrated, while we are swimming in instances of life from life all around us.  

Not one instance of god creating life or indeed anything has ever been demonstrated.  Yet you eager anticipate sucking the dick of such a god.

(January 4, 2018 at 12:29 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(January 4, 2018 at 12:25 pm)Astreja Wrote: If you can't accept beginnings, it stands to reason that you won't accept anything that was based on those beginnings either.

I have come to the conclusion that no matter what we show you, you will reject it because it contradicts your mythology-suffused worldview.

I haven't rejected Urey-Miller. Yes, I accept that scientists can take certain chemicals and turn them into other chemicals in a lab. So what? I've got plenty of amino acids in my house. They don't turn into life.

Are they mixed with lipids in an environment that is, at best weakly oxidizing? Is there a significant amount of UV radiation impinging with alternating cycles of wetness and dryness? Are there claylike materials around to act like catalysts? Is the environment clear of other competing life? Are there iron sulfur materials around to help local oxidation?

I didn't think so.

(January 4, 2018 at 1:06 pm)emjay Wrote: That's surprising... to hear it told, it's as if the whole of that pesky OT was made allegory

That was actually done by the jews.  Two schools existed, alexandrian and palestinian, and both where what we now call allegorists.  They advanced, and importantly drew from the earliest preserved writings of the prophets, and we call the subtlely different systems mystical and typological respectively. 

Catholicism was made to re-assert the literal presumption of the narrative.  They have, over the centuries, negotiated with their constituency over that article, but as a matter of dogma catholocism insists that genesis is not allegory, particularly that a man and a woman were created, the first human beings rtom which we all descend (somehow), and through adam inherit our sin or sinful nature(somehow) - as well as the fallen state of this world(somehow).

Without this, literal, interpretation.  There is no need for christ, or for the rituals, cantrips, and magic spells of the catholic church then or now. Thus the temple tax scheme turned social institution loses it's sole reason for existence.

-but don't take my word for it-

Quote:The Catholic Position



What is the Catholic position concerning belief or unbelief in evolution? The question may never be finally settled, but there are definite parameters to what is acceptable Catholic belief. 

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5). 

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6). 

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him. 

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are. 

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution. 

Quote:It is impossible to dismiss the events of Genesis 1 as a mere legend. They are accounts of real history, even if they are told in a style of historical writing that Westerners do not typically use.

Quote:The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents" (CCC 390).

Quote:As the Catechism puts it, "Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things the of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are" (CCC 159). The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/adam-eve-and-evolution

Seems awfully definitive, and hilariously ironic right there at the end.

(January 4, 2018 at 1:42 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Are they mixed with lipids in an environment that is, at best weakly oxidizing? Is there a significant amount of UV radiation impinging with alternating cycles of wetness and dryness? Are there claylike materials around to act like catalysts? Is the environment clear of other competing life? Are there iron sulfur materials around to help local oxidation?

I didn't think so.

Has creating such an environment resulted in life?

I didn't think so.

(January 4, 2018 at 2:28 pm)Khemikal Wrote:

(January 4, 2018 at 1:06 pm)emjay Wrote: That's surprising... to hear it told, it's as if the whole of that pesky OT was made allegory

That was actually done by the jews.  Two schools existed, alexandrian and palestinian, and both where what we now call allegorists.  They advanced, and importantly drew from the earliest preserved writings of the prophets, and we call the subtlely different systems mystical and typological respectively. 

Catholicism was made to re-assert the literal presumption of the narrative.  They have, over the centuries, negotiated with their constituency over that article, but as a matter of dogma catholocism insists that genesis is not allegory, particularly that a man and a woman were created, the first human beings rtom which we all descend (somehow), and through adam inherit our sin or sinful nature(somehow) - as well as the fallen state of this world(somehow).

Without this, literal, interpretation.  There is no need for christ, or for the rituals, cantrips, and magic spells of the catholic church then or now. Thus the temple tax scheme turned social institution loses it's sole reason for existence.

-but don't take my word for it-

Quote:The Catholic Position



What is the Catholic position concerning belief or unbelief in evolution? The question may never be finally settled, but there are definite parameters to what is acceptable Catholic belief. 

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5). 

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6). 

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him. 

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are. 

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution. 

Quote:It is impossible to dismiss the events of Genesis 1 as a mere legend. They are accounts of real history, even if they are told in a style of historical writing that Westerners do not typically use.

Quote:The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents" (CCC 390).

Quote:As the Catechism puts it, "Methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things the of the faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are" (CCC 159). The Catholic Church has no fear of science or scientific discovery.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/adam-eve-and-evolution

Seems awfully definitive, and hilariously ironic right there at the end.

Right... thanks for that. No wonder it was confusing if they've basically made fence-sitting their official policy in regard to questions of science, leaving it up to individual believers whether they believe in the Big Bang or are YECs, and likewise for evolution... just as long as either way it begins with God. Yeah, definitive and ironic indeed... they've certainly got all their bases covered with that, so I doubt they'll ever need to revise that particular policy.

alpha male Wrote:

polymath257 Wrote:Are they mixed with lipids in an environment that is, at best weakly oxidizing? Is there a significant amount of UV radiation impinging with alternating cycles of wetness and dryness? Are there claylike materials around to act like catalysts? Is the environment clear of other competing life? Are there iron sulfur materials around to help local oxidation?

I didn't think so.

Has creating such an environment resulted in life?

I didn't think so.  

Are you saying that because it hasn't been demonstrated, it's unreasonable to think that it happened?

(January 4, 2018 at 3:14 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: Are you saying that because it hasn't been demonstrated, it's unreasonable to think that it happened?

Think is too vague there. If you mean speculate, sure, knock yourself out.

@emjay
It's worse, they duplicitously make noises about fence sitting while infallibly declaring that no one can officially fence sit.  

In short, they allow and provide support for catholics to -be- bad catholics, but they don't hesitate to re-assert their orthodoxy in official documentation. Genesis is real history insomuch as the central mystery of catholicism is a fact even if they're not going to set anybody on a pile of twigs about it (anymore). They don;t give a shit about the rest of the nutty christians literalist beliefs..those may not be true, under the bus they go........ but theirs infallibly are.

Cross their hearts, scouts honor, and no science can or will ever say anything to the contrary no matter the fact that all science says everything to the contrary. Catholicism is batshit crazy biblical literalism...even if catholics aren't.