(January 5, 2018 at 7:50 am)Grandizer Wrote: Here's a Peanut Gallery thread to discuss answers posted in the corresponding "Explain This" thread:
https://atheistforums.org/thread-52870.html

DLJ, you have the right idea when it comes to style and substance. I personally haven't given you kudos because I honestly have a hard time really understanding the post. I understand things here and there, but need to read it again at a later time for better understanding.

Also, from what I have seen, Boru is the only one so far who has directly addressed every part of the question (including the "sun rising tomorrow part"), and I wish more people not only address every part of the question but come up with illustrative examples.

I say spice things up, be creative, use your imagination. Pictures and diagrams will do wonders and will probably increase the odds of a getting a kudos (I think).

What are your thoughts?

Thanks for this thread.

Lemme know if there's anything you don't know believe understand after your re-read.

So to address the missing part (because I can't edit the original):

(January 1, 2018 at 2:31 am)Grandizer Wrote: ...
What is the difference between belief and knowledge? Does one say they know the sun will rise tomorrow, or can they only reasonably say they believe the sun will rise tomorrow? Is there even a difference? I find this a little confusing. Please explain.

Leaving aside the reality that the sun does not rise at all... the earth rotates, but you knew that...

Using the DIKW diagram (the one with the four circles) one can say that one 'knows' that the sun will rise tomorrow because of inductive reasoning.  It is "actionable information" (knowledge) and will be assumed to be the case unless or until new data/information demonstrates otherwise.

We also know that, based on maffs and fisics and stuff, that the sun will one day die but...



So we also know that one tomorrow the sun will not rise.

Is it also a belief?
As I mentioned, 'belief' (or beliefs) don't feature in Information Modelling (or information systems) so the best analogy I have for beliefs is that they are a 'baseline' (which is technically an authorised version of something) that collectively form our ethical systems (I'm talking about the cognitive level rather than anything to do with e.g. homeostasis) stored in memory.  

Imagine the DIKW diagram with a bucket next to it into which the data, information and knowledge is poured with the word 'authorised' stamped on the bucket.

'Authorised' rather than 'true'.  'True' is a philosophical concept rather than a scientific concept.  I deliberately avoided using the word 'true' and anyone who did needs to chuck in a definition for it.

I go with the Pragmatists (I think it was them, not sure) by defining 'true' as "A label given to propositions in accordance with an epistemology."  Which means that if a theist says "It's true for me", I'm not going to argue with their belief that they really do think it's true, but I'll be happy to shit on their epistemology.

Thus, one can also say that is it a belief that the sun will rise tomorrow (as part of one's baseline of (collected, sorted, analysed) knowledge (and data and information)).

The problem with beliefs, though, is the 'wisdom' part.  Wisdom could come from 'folk psychology', folk-lore, myths etc. if unsupported by Data, Information and Knowledge.  Thus one can make a good decision (i.e. useful decision) based on poor reasoning or a bad decision... who knows?  They don't because they lack the knowledge.

The baseline (beliefs) is formed by knowledge and, through a feed-back loop, becomes a filter through which new information is sorted, analysed etc.; the baseline forms the basis of our ethics and this explains why some people have shitty ethics.  

And I can't resist (sorry) adding:

(January 5, 2018 at 11:20 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ...
The grass is green. 2+2=4. Etc.
...

Grass is not always green and 2+2 does not always =4.

(January 5, 2018 at 8:07 am)mh.brewer Wrote: I wasn't smart enough to contribute.

I must be doing it wrong.  I thought I was being smart enough not to try.

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(January 5, 2018 at 11:20 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 5, 2018 at 10:15 am)mlmooney89 Wrote: Want may have been the wrong word. Still it's hard to differentiate because to me knowledge is also what you think. Lol this is harder than I thought it would be. It's like I know the difference in my head but can put it into words

I would say knowledge means it is a 100% obvious/ proven fact. Like, I have knowledge that I am female. The grass is green. 2+2=4. Etc.

Belief is when it is not 100% proven fact. I believe my husband loves me, I believe God exists, I believe we evolved from apes, etc.

I'd be curious to know Cath-y if you think "faith" is a special kind of "knowledge" or a special kind of "belief" or something else entirely?  As a person of faith myself (just not involving gods), I come down on the belief side of that question.  You?

I like the idea of this thread for us to make comments. DLJ gets kudos for the most comprehensive answer, but does his answer really capture the essence of the difference between belief and knowledge? ShirkahnW had a good point with:

Quote:There is no such thing as knowledge. We believe in everything. We describe something as knowledge as soon as it is too unlikely that it will not happen.

But I would have phased it like this: "There is no such thing as knowledge. We believe in everything. [Knowledge is merely a belief which we think is substantiated]."
Epistemologically speaking, this may be the most accurate.

mlmooney captured the colloquial use of the word "belief" while differentiating between true and false knowledge:

Quote:Belief is something you want to be true so you say it is.

Knowledge is when you are sure something is true. Mind you the true part doesn't mean it actually is true. IE "It is to the best of my knowledge that Elizabeth is still the English queen." It is a statement made from actual facts but could still be wrong (say the queen died but the speaker didn't know)

I think the best definition would harmonize the colloquial and epistemological aspects of both terms. Khemikal sort of did this:

Quote:Belief describes those propositions which we currently hold to be true. Knowledge describes those propositions we can show to be true.

Whether anyone else can do it better, we'll see.

Also, a hard deadline to post answers and vote with kudos might help the thread in general.

Edit: Actually considering mlmooney definition the best at this point.

(January 5, 2018 at 12:03 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(January 5, 2018 at 8:07 am)mh.brewer Wrote: I wasn't smart enough to contribute.

I must be doing it wrong.  I thought I was being smart enough not to try.

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(January 5, 2018 at 11:20 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I would say knowledge means it is a 100% obvious/ proven fact. Like, I have knowledge that I am female. The grass is green. 2+2=4. Etc.

Belief is when it is not 100% proven fact. I believe my husband loves me, I believe God exists, I believe we evolved from apes, etc.

I'd be curious to know Cath-y if you think "faith" is a special kind of "knowledge" or a special kind of "belief" or something else entirely?  As a person of faith myself (just not involving gods), I come down on the belief side of that question.  You?

Same.

I'd say faith is confident belief, but belief nonetheless.

(January 5, 2018 at 12:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(January 5, 2018 at 12:03 pm)Whateverist Wrote: I must be doing it wrong.  I thought I was being smart enough not to try.

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I'd be curious to know Cath-y if you think "faith" is a special kind of "knowledge" or a special kind of "belief" or something else entirely?  As a person of faith myself (just not involving gods), I come down on the belief side of that question.  You?

Same.

I'd say faith is confident belief, but belief nonetheless.

You just confirmed my Best Theist vote.

I will extend this first challenge for one more week. Lots on my plate to do now that I'm back here in Sydney.

(January 5, 2018 at 2:03 pm)Whateverist Wrote:

(January 5, 2018 at 12:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Same.

I'd say faith is confident belief, but belief nonetheless.

You just confirmed my Best Theist vote.

Shit I'd forgotten she was a theist! can I change my vote!

(January 7, 2018 at 6:25 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Shit I'd forgotten she was a theist!

Her fucking name is Catholic Lady!

(January 7, 2018 at 6:26 am)vulcanlogician Wrote:

(January 7, 2018 at 6:25 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Shit I'd forgotten she was a theist!

Her fucking name is Catholic Lady!

Yeah I know, but I cant help thinking of her as one of us.

That supports my hunch that there is plenty of room for believers in "us". What's needed isn't disbelief, just better theology. Or, following C_L's example, just more self honesty.