(January 17, 2018 at 5:26 pm)Tizheruk Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 5:22 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Soooo you're accusing this man of sexual assault based on the fact that Grace might not have told us a part of the story that would incriminate him?

That is the most unreasonable thing I've ever heard.

No i already addressed this above

So if you're not accusing him of assault based on the story we know, then why did you say you disagreed with me when I said exactly that?

Also, I think it's pertinent to note that even after she put her clothes back on, he persisted in his behavior:

Quote:“I just remember looking in the mirror and seeing him behind me. He was very much caught up in the moment and I obviously very much wasn’t,” Grace said. “After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this. And he said, ‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’”

They got dressed, sat side by side on the couch they’d already “chilled” on, and he turned on an episode of Seinfeld. She’d never seen it before. She said that’s when the reality of what was going on sank in. “It really hit me that I was violated. I felt really emotional all at once when we sat down there. That that whole experience was actually horrible.”

While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants. She turned away. She remembers “feeling in a different mindset at that point.”

“I remember saying, ‘You guys are all the same, you guys are all the fucking same.’” Ansari asked her what she meant. When she turned to answer, she says he met her with “gross, forceful kisses.”

Clearly consent had been withdrawn at that point, right?

Quote:So if you're not accusing him of rape based on the story we know, then why did you say you disagreed with me when I said exactly that?

I'm saying that a case could be made that it was . So we are still disagreeing

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(January 17, 2018 at 5:27 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Also, I think it's pertinent to note that even after she put her clothes back on, he persisted in his behavior:

Quote:“I just remember looking in the mirror and seeing him behind me. He was very much caught up in the moment and I obviously very much wasn’t,” Grace said. “After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this. And he said, ‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’”

They got dressed, sat side by side on the couch they’d already “chilled” on, and he turned on an episode of Seinfeld. She’d never seen it before. She said that’s when the reality of what was going on sank in. “It really hit me that I was violated. I felt really emotional all at once when we sat down there. That that whole experience was actually horrible.”

While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants. She turned away. She remembers “feeling in a different mindset at that point.”

“I remember saying, ‘You guys are all the same, you guys are all the fucking same.’” Ansari asked her what she meant. When she turned to answer, she says he met her with “gross, forceful kisses.”

Clearly consent had been withdrawn at that point, right?

Yup . now whether that is strong enough by itself is the question .

(January 17, 2018 at 2:31 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(January 17, 2018 at 2:25 pm)Mermaid Wrote: Being naked is not consent.

Being naked creates the rebuttable presumption that the naked person is interested in sex.

I think people living in nudist colonies would disagree. That said, this isn't about a person in a nudist colony. But Mermaid is correct. Being naked is not consent no matter how one wants to spin it. 

That's not even the point. No assault took place. If she felt so strongly that it did, then why go to a reporter? Why not call the police instead?

(January 17, 2018 at 5:10 pm)Shell B Wrote: Nah, he clearly said "by all indications," meaning she didn't indicate it wasn't consensual, which is the other side of the story. It's not much. Maybe he'll clarify more. Maybe we'll all be left to wonder what Tom Haverford really did that night in 2016 . . .

Right, and I'm just pointing out that he's not denying the claw...or the 30 minutes of a football play, or the sleazeball impositions..none of it.  

He says it was consensual, she says it wasn't, that it was a violation in a meaningful way.  I think thats the kernel of the whole hubbub, is that even if assualt doesn't stick..what are we talking about here, bitches be lying, or brothers be creepin? When the salvation of a purported feminist ally can really only amount to another kind of condemnation that's just so on the nose with the story it's coming out of. I think it makes us uncomfortable, and maybe even forces us to confront things we're not supposed to say™.

Either bitches be lyin, or she was too passive of a victim. Either brothers be creepin...or..no here's the sad part, brothers be creepin..period. Lying bitch or her fault or he's an asshole. Fuck, stop the rape parade, there's no happy ending here.

(January 17, 2018 at 3:43 pm)J a c k Wrote: Assault or no assault...

(Heartspill)

I’m concerned about women being afraid to impose.
He’s having a good time, I don’t want him to think I’m boring. I want to stop, but I want him to stop because he wants to, not because I tell him to. This guy’s a creep, but for some reason I still don’t want him to think I’m lame, so I’ll see how much more I can take. I think he’s gross right now, but I don’t want to hurt his feelings, so I won’t say anything. I feel forced, but I’ll try to filter the way I say it, so his feelings are spared. I don’t want to be a tease, so I can’t get dressed if I’m already naked.

This is a problem. Just typing it was difficult. I was in an abusive relationship in which I was made to feel guilty when I refused sex. He’d even cry. He’d yell. He’d tell me I was making him feel unloved. Was I in love with somebody else? It’s like I owed him sex. Sex was awful. It took so much work on myself to learn that I was capable of shutting him out. I was allowed to send him away. I was my own person and my body belonged to me. I really do empathize with women who are not there yet. I feel the pain of their fear. I can relate, because I treated myself like shit, therefore, I opened the door for others to do it, too. Now I could even come off as a bitch sometimes, and I’m ok with that. I love myself so much that making myself feel comfortable is more important than not being a bitch. I must add that this case is also very different than the one in the article. I was punished for refusing. She didn’t refuse. She wasn’t punished.

Truth is, I learned to treat my body like a second class citizen since I was a child due to assault. When I was assaulted as an adult, I was even left to die. When I read or hear stories about sexual assault, my heart breaks and I want to save them from a future of shame and pain.

I couldn’t even hate my attackers. I was too afraid of them until years later. Now when I hear of one, I hope they rot in prison. I hope any child abuser suffers with a vengeance. I have zero pity.

The reason this case is so concerning to me is because there is a thin line between assault and simply being a creepy dick who wasn’t considerate and missed some signs. I want to be careful about placing an incompetent dumbass in the same category as I’d place the men who hurt me and the ones who have hurt so many other women and men. I believe the type of men (or women) who would rape are less than human and lack heart. I believe they are bad people.

In conclusion:
My heart saddens for women who are afraid of voicing their feelings, and my brain worries about being unfair. Furthermore, I’m very happy that there is a discussion going on (not just here, but everywhere) about this. This is important. I hope it’s productive.

End rant.

I'm so sorry you suffered this terrible abuse. I'm happy you're the woman now who is such an awesome friend to me.

He could very well be refuting all of that with the words "completely consensual."

I think that if he wanted to say "bitches be lying"...he had that opportunity, and if it were true, it would have made every bit of sense in the world to say it. I would have spent at least a few minuites directly responding to some of the more bizarre elements of my fictional bedroom repertoire...if it were fictional.

Work with me, Shell.

"In September of last year, I met a woman at a party. We exchanged numbers. We texted back and forth and eventually went on a date. We went out to dinner, and afterwards we ended up engaging in sexual activity, which by all indications was completely consensual. The next day, I got a text from her saying that although ‘it may have seemed okay,’ upon further reflection, she felt uncomfortable. It was true that everything did seem okay to me, so when I heard that it was not the case for her, I was surprised and concerned. I took her words to heart and responded privately after taking the time to process what she had said.”

(January 17, 2018 at 5:43 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I think that if he wanted to say "bitches be lying"...he had that opportunity, and if it were true, it would have made every bit of sense in the world to say it.  I would have spent at least a few minuites directly responding to some of the more bizarre elements of my fictional bedroom repertoire.

Work with me, Shell.

Maybe he didn't want to come off as a dick? You're making inferences into what he said. He said it was by all indications completely consensual, which does negate a lot of what she said. Maybe he has a longer statement? Maybe his publicist said, "Dude, just play it cool." and he did. We don't know any of this, but I definitely think he is disagreeing with her assessment.