That's an interesting bit of compartmentalization there, up above. Hey, at least you're conflicted, that's progress for religion.

(January 26, 2018 at 11:27 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I imagine a world where rape and murder were morally good would be a very very different world. Everything about human nature and how this world works points to those things being morally wrong.

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Basically it makes no sense for God to declare rape/murder morally good, considering the world He has set up and the way He created us. They are contrary to natural law.

In reality rape and murder are observable behaviors. They are an unfortunate part of reality. But, there is no magic sky hero vs a ground troll screwing with the neurons in human's brains.

What makes rape and murder undesirable is evolutionary empathy. Power and control may motivate someone to commit those acts, but our evolution drives us to avoid pain, and our social grouping made us evolve with empathy, which is why we can empathize with victims of those things. No magic needed to explain nature or our behaviors.

But you are wrong about all of antiquity including your own holy writing.

Long before any written religion or nation, our species was nomadic, and life was far more harsh and your supporting your clan was far more important. When we evolved to becoming sedentary and created farms, our evolution lead us to protect our local royalty, but even back then the tribalism between rulers was extremely competitive and back then tribes could be very brutal to each other. 

Your BOOK does not ban murder or rape. Your book DOES  condone brutality against those outside the tribes of Abraham  But I AM NOT singling your religion out. BACK THEN worldwide it was very common to take your rival's captured and murder them, make them slaves and take their children, especially females as prizes in war.

The elimination of rival genes and dominance of others we see in evolution in other mammals as well. Arctic wolves will hunt in packs and family members will protect other family members, even sister's will protect each other's cubs. But if the scouts run across a rival's den, they will murder the cubs. Why? Because all the different rival packs are competing for the same food sources. Zebras and lions will murder rival cubs too. 

^^^^^^ None of thee above is arguing that humans should be cruel to each other. That is simply a REAL explanation as to why the mythology was written the way it was. It is simply our species ignorant gap filling to explain why we compete. 

Point is we are NOT special to this planet. There is no magic as to why humans do good or bad. What harms one individual may benefit another. Having said that, humans certainly CAN and SHOULD seek less violence and more diplomacy.

(January 28, 2018 at 10:56 am)Chad32 Wrote:

(January 28, 2018 at 2:31 am)Banned Wrote: Either God is too merciful in our opinion or too harsh. But it's not like we know everything, especially from a brief outline of history, so making serious judgments about God, to the point of blasphemy is not very bright at all.

That seems to only count when someone claims he's bad. Never when people claim he's good, which is an equally serious judgment. I can look at his actions and say he's bad. People who say he's good usually have to reinterpret what's plainly said in the book, or claim it's allegory, or some other excuse.

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(January 28, 2018 at 3:34 am)Banned Wrote: If that society could have been reformed God would not have ended it.
I suggest that you watch some videos on social reform for pedophiles. Pity is right, but it doesn't always reform.

Then he's not all powerful, is he? There are limits to what he's capable of. I know there are limits to what we're capable of, and if he can't do better than that, then he isn't worth worshiping as some higher being.

Why should an all powerful God who is loving, get a kick out of making you a robot?

You are entitled to make whatever judgments about God.
But how would you like me misrepresent you without further knowledge of who you are?
Let's say someone is considered to be a criminal in prison, a corrupt court could have placed them there with all the evidence against them, and no one, not even their own family believes they are innocent.

Innocent until proven guilty applies to God.

People are moral in spite of the Old Testament Bible, Christian or not.

Quote:Why should an all powerful God who is loving, get a kick out of making you a robot?

I hear this short-sighted objection from theists all the time:  'No sin means no free will.'  Well, if God is all powerful (as you claim) what would be the objection to God allowing the creation of only those people who, of their own free will, would never sin?

Quote:You are entitled to make whatever judgments about God.

Golly, thanks.

Quote:But how would you like me misrepresent you without further knowledge of who you are?

I don't think I'd care for it very much.

 

Quote:Let's say someone is considered to be a criminal in prison, a corrupt court could have placed them there with all the evidence against them, and no one, not even their own family believes they are innocent.

Innocent people go to prison, but this doesn't apply to God.  See below.


 

Quote:Innocent until proven guilty applies to God.

But God is, by definition, already proved guilty. If God is indeed the creator and sustainer of the Universe, then everything that ever happens anywhere can be laid to God's charge.  The mudslide that buries a village in Indonesia, a baby elephant chasing birds, thalidomide babies, lottery winners - everything.  And if God is all powerful, he could have created and sustained a universe without the horrors of either moral or natural evil.  Since he hasn't, and human beings as moral actors are the ones who have to suffer the caprices of the God of whom you think so highly, it seems that we're entitled to an explanation as to why things are the way they are.  To date, this explanation hasn't been forthcoming.

Boru

(January 29, 2018 at 7:47 am)Sal Wrote: People are moral in spite of the Old Testament Bible, Christian or not.

That's correct. All have the gift of discerning what constitutes fairness and love, and what is done with that gift develops irrevocable consequences, for good or evil.

We reap what we sow.
But not so fast and not so dismal.

All receive encouragement and inspiration from God, as well as warnings of wrong and danger.
All make mistakes, but none are without hope or help.
All are given grace, forgiveness, time and opportunities to turn their lives around.

But self righteousness, pride and denial, are the real killers of good.

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(January 29, 2018 at 8:13 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:

Quote:Why should an all powerful God who is loving, get a kick out of making you a robot?

I hear this short-sighted objection from theists all the time:  'No sin means no free will.'  Well, if God is all powerful (as you claim) what would be the objection to God allowing the creation of only those people who, of their own free will, would never sin?

But God is, by definition, already proved guilty. If God is indeed the creator and sustainer of the Universe, then everything that ever happens anywhere can be laid to God's charge.  The mudslide that buries a village in Indonesia, a baby elephant chasing birds, thalidomide babies, lottery winners - everything.  And if God is all powerful, he could have created and sustained a universe without the horrors of either moral or natural evil.  Since he hasn't, and human beings as moral actors are the ones who have to suffer the caprices of the God of whom you think so highly, it seems that we're entitled to an explanation as to why things are the way they are.  To date, this explanation hasn't been forthcoming.

Boru

Yes, God is ultimately responsible for his creation, good or bad.
Many say he hasn't been good with that.

But where should the Divine intervention have begun and ended?
What should have been done, and how?

God has given you the capacity to work this out, by the sense of fairness and equity he has given every human being to begin with.

I agree with you whole heartedly, the suffering and dysfunction is a stupid irresponsible joke. In which case it makes sense to dismiss God, or find out otherwise.

Quote:Yes, God is ultimately responsible for his creation, good or bad.

Then explain to me why I should have anything to do with Godism.


 

Quote:Many say he hasn't been good with that.

Many are correct.


 

Quote:But where should the Divine intervention have begun and ended?
What should have been done, and how?

I've already told you.  Scroll up.

 
 

Quote:God has given you the capacity to work this out, by the sense of fairness and equity he has given every human being to begin with.

As I said, I have worked it out (it wasn't hard).

 

Quote:I agree with you whole heartedly, the suffering and dysfunction is a stupid irresponsible joke. In which case it makes sense to dismiss God, or find out otherwise.

And yet you seem to have no trouble believing in God.  That's kind of impressive, in a morally terrifying sort of way.

Boru

(January 27, 2018 at 11:43 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Societal reform, so that children don't grow up like their parents, is beyond the wisdom of Yahweh. Just killing the lot of them is easier.

It's not like Yaweh is an expert on everything, including psychology, or anything.

(January 29, 2018 at 9:24 am)Industrial Lad Wrote:

(January 27, 2018 at 11:43 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Societal reform, so that children don't grow up like their parents, is beyond the wisdom of Yahweh. Just killing the lot of them is easier.

It's not like Yaweh is an expert on everything, including psychology, or anything.

Yeah, he's not real good with iron either, despite creating literally mega-mega-mega tons of the stuff when he invoked all of creation. His skill set has clearly declined.

(January 29, 2018 at 7:44 am)Banned Wrote:

(January 28, 2018 at 10:56 am)Chad32 Wrote: That seems to only count when someone claims he's bad. Never when people claim he's good, which is an equally serious judgment. I can look at his actions and say he's bad. People who say he's good usually have to reinterpret what's plainly said in the book, or claim it's allegory, or some other excuse.

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Then he's not all powerful, is he? There are limits to what he's capable of. I know there are limits to what we're capable of, and if he can't do better than that, then he isn't worth worshiping as some higher being.

Why should an all powerful God who is loving, get a kick out of making you a robot?

You are entitled to make whatever judgments about God.
But how would you like me misrepresent you without further knowledge of who you are?
Let's say someone is considered to be a criminal in prison, a corrupt court could have placed them there with all the evidence against them, and no one, not even their own family believes they are innocent.

Innocent until proven guilty applies to God.

He's not loving. Hence why he wants you to obey every word he says, and claims you're worthy of being completely abandoned or set on fire for eternity when you don't.

All the information we have about this god comes from the bible. Everything else has to be taken on faith. So there isn't really further knowledge we can take. If it paints him in a bad way, then he has failed. He even admits his plan isn't going to work very well when he says the road to hell is broad, and the road to heaven is narrow, instead of being the other way around.

Why should it apply to god, when he doesn't apply it to us? Humans go to hell by default. We're expected to seek him out, and get "saved" from the punishment he intends for us if we don't. Innocent until proven guilty is our idea, because we've grown past this bible god.

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(January 29, 2018 at 9:24 am)Industrial Lad Wrote:

(January 27, 2018 at 11:43 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Societal reform, so that children don't grow up like their parents, is beyond the wisdom of Yahweh. Just killing the lot of them is easier.

It's not like Yaweh is an expert on everything, including psychology, or anything.

He can count the hairs on your head, but seems to think you're capable of controlling your thoughts when it's proven you can't. Thou shalt not covet is meaningless.