There's more than just profit/loss with Chinese solar panels, their manufacturing base's pollution is killing their people.

(January 27, 2018 at 12:29 am)Coveny Wrote: 1) Rescinding ban dumping toxic heavy metals into waterways

Bad idea.

(January 29, 2018 at 10:15 am)vorlon13 Wrote: There's more than just profit/loss with Chinese solar panels, their manufacturing base's pollution is killing their people.

Chinese solar is almost emblematic of that...beyond their shady materials sourcing the production of solar in china relies on inefficient (but cost effective) energy from fossil fuels.  On top of that the cut rate panels produce less and become waste, themselves, more quickly.

An EPA environmental impact statement on a Chinese solar panel tariff, were such a thing required, would be a pretty positive document for supporting the tariff.

There'd be some indigestion in the more conservative supporters of the tariff from sidling up to such an eventuality I'd find humorous too.

(January 29, 2018 at 7:21 am)Khemikal Wrote:

(January 27, 2018 at 1:09 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: So are you in favor of the tarriff then? It would seem to balance that out by taxing the chinese. I guess I don't know enough about the solar industry to really have an opinion on it.

I just think it's funny to watch people who would normally be in favor of higher tariffs be all free trade because it's Trump. If Chinese solar really is dirty, this would seem a good thing.

No, I don't think a tariff is the way to go, personally.  I did a big write up on the boards awhile back @ how solar came to be in the position it's in.  Long story short, the end of cheap waste and the coopting of industry watchdogs combined with the wholesale gutting of relevant regs under the guise of "pro-business" policy.  A tariff would drive manufacturing further into the toilet for the same reason it dove into the toilet in the first place.  Offshore manufacturers would race to the bottom again.

I'm only conflicted in that our bumbling admin has at least identified a legitimate problem for a change..even if the proposed solution is as amatuerish as we've come to expect.  So I guess they get a participation award on this one?  How you came to be under the impression that I'm not predictably in the tank for free trade, otoh, is a mystery, lol. I think you might have swallowed a little too much of the rights leftist koolaid, of late. You're seeing boogeymen.

I don't know everything about your personal politics, but most people on the left tend towards being against sending jobs overseasa, the evils of outsourcing etc. I'm not basing this on what right wing people say, not drinking any koolaid, that's for sure. I mostly base it off of what left wing people on atheist forums have said over the years, plus just paying attention to the world. Bernie Sanders is in favor of many similar protectionist policies. He probably wouldn't do it on solar panels, just because it sounds bad, but it's basically the same sort of policies.

It's been amazing to see the sudden switch in many left wing people on trade issues with Trump, because Trump is left of most people on trade and most people in the U.S. are on such a left right diconemy of political thinking and so afraid of agreeing with anyrhing Trump says that I've never in my life seen so much defense of free trade from left wing people, either in op-eds or just on here.

You have a more subtle and informed view of the whole thing, but also I wasn't necessarily talking about you specifically. It's not like saying "left wing people " implies 100% of them. I mean, duh. Obviously there is some diversity of thought on the left, and on trade. But I bet if Bernie Sanders had done the same thing they'd be "Bernie saved American jobs and helps clean up solar."

(January 29, 2018 at 1:18 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: But I bet if Bernie Sanders had done the same thing they'd be "Bernie saved American jobs and helps clean up solar."

Meh, maybe, but they'd be wrong.  I don;t fuck with protectionism regardless of whose selling it.  Don't even know where to begin my gripes about the american left, a misnomer if there ever were one.  It's centrism with laudable social goals...but something has to pay the bills amiright?

I do think that sending jobs overseas and outsourcing are counterproductive...but certainly not when we're competing on cost. If you can't beat em for pennies on the dollar (and we can't, no matter what we do), bury em under superior quality - is my take. I;m certainly not trying to compete with canned beans in my own personal search for a more sustainable future. I'd have gone broke a long time ago.

(January 27, 2018 at 1:18 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: It's funny to watch left wing people defend the free market all of a sudden.

Nothing wrong with the free market as long as it stays out of stuff that should be state controlled

Health, railways, prisons and infrastructure etc.

(January 27, 2018 at 1:18 am)CapnAwesome Wrote: It's funny to watch left wing people defend the free market all of a sudden.

That’s only because the right wing has warped itself so many lunatic light years to the right that free trade and evenhanded free market has become an extreme left wing issue.

Remember that the WLB wants everyone to go back to burning coal.



Of course, he is a dumb, criminal, fuck.

@Anom
That's the real irony of it.  The rightwing nutters in the US doesn't give a single shit about a "free" market.  They want a racket.  Rackets aren't free by any sensible description of the word.  So OFC -somebody- has to actually do the work of ensuring that the markets remain relatively free in the face of that intense profiteering impulse.  That this work falls on people deeply suspicious of market actors is, firstly, pure coincidence..and secondly....entirely responsible.

My suggestion, is that if there are people disaffected by the american "left" handling market regulation..then they should prop up credible candidates on the right.  That's obviously too much to ask, and..frankly, does anyone believe that Joe Republican Citizen has any power whatsoever on that count?  His pockets just aren't deep enough. Repeat ad infinutum for the disaffected left. Aren't we tired of pretending that any of these people are free market advocates rather than corporate shills? This is an issue over which there is broad bipartisan agreement from the bottom....shuffled aside only by the loyalties of the plebs to their owners respective faction at the top.