(January 29, 2018 at 7:18 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:

(January 29, 2018 at 6:21 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Hell is a theist parameter, not ours.

Correct, which is why her post was addressed to Neo and Steve, who are both theists, lol.

Right. But having been at this for 16 years I always notice how easily they argue each other as sub sects and different religions as well, then ignore that I point this out. That even within their own umbrella label, they cant find agreement.

It is because that a holy book has never been the seat of our behaviors. We know that, but they don't yet.

(January 27, 2018 at 8:33 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, all atheists go to hell of their own free will and accord. (or maybe just annihilated.)

"I'll take 'Stupid things Christians say' for $1000, Alex".


If the following Christian propositions are true, then I am not responsible for 'sending myself to hell'.

1. god had a choice in which universe he was going to create, but he chose this one.

He chose this universe, where people are going to born being indoctrinated into 'false religions', where some of us are not going to be convinced of his existence, and where he, if he wanted to, could convince us.

2. god created Hell.

3. god created everything including the criteria by which people are judged that determines if they go to hell.

4. Nothing happens that doesn't go according to god's plan.

He created hell, with the knowledge that many people weren't going to fulfill his criteria to avoid going there. He could have destroyed it, or created different rules for being sent there. Yet, he created the rules for being sent there, despite knowing, with absolute certainty, that the vast majority of his creation would end up there.

How am I responsible for 'sending myself to hell' again.

(January 29, 2018 at 9:06 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:

(January 27, 2018 at 8:33 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yes, all atheists go to hell of their own free will and accord. (or maybe just annihilated.)

"I'll take 'Stupid things Christians say' for $1000, Alex".


If the following Christian propositions are true, then I am not responsible for 'sending myself to hell'.

1. god had a choice in which universe he was going to create, but he chose this one.

He chose this universe, where people are going to born being indoctrinated into 'false religions', where some of us are not going to be convinced of his existence, and where he, if he wanted to, could convince us.

2. god created Hell.

3. god created everything including the criteria by which people are judged that determines if they go to hell.

4. Nothing happens that doesn't go according to god's plan.

He created hell, with the knowledge that many people weren't going to fulfill his criteria to avoid going there. He could have destroyed it, or created different rules for being sent there. Yet, he created the rules for being sent there, despite knowing, with absolute certainty, that the vast majority of his creation would end up there.

How am I responsible for 'sending myself to hell' again.

And after the commercial break, witness the definition of the word, “omnipotent” mangled beyond recognition!

(January 29, 2018 at 4:02 pm)Astreja Wrote:

(January 29, 2018 at 3:38 pm)SteveII Wrote: No I don't think that striving to do good or making an honest effort is enough. "State of Grace" is the state where you are made holy before God because of a very specific act: accepting Jesus as your savior and the redemption that comes with it (that's the Grace part).

I've always found this utterly baffling.  If people can't do sufficient good to get themselves into heaven, how can they possibly make themselves bad enough to warrant an eternity in hell?  The whole scenario is just too creepy and manipulative for my tastes.

I'm sure someone has beaten me to it, but...

Hell is the only thing we're allegedly worthy of, no matter what good we may or may not do in life. We're all doomed because the rib woman got tricked into eating some fruit by a talking serpent and convinced a dirt man to have a bite. It doesn't matter that the situation as described in the buy-bull is much like placing a cookie in front of a four year old and telling them "No not eat the cookie or you're doomed" and, after mom leaves the room, his eight year old brother eating a cookie in front of him while saying "Look, see. I'm not doomed."

Looks like bullshit. Smells like bullshit...

Must be bullshit.

Let's not blame the authors of that little sex story for how badly christians fucked it up later.  They couldn't have known.

I just find it incredibly apropos that a non-evidenced god has hinged salvation on one's thoughts rather than actions.

"
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
"
Marcus Aurelius (not really, but it's what many internet sites claim... No one knows where this quote comes from)

(January 29, 2018 at 7:13 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

---

(January 29, 2018 at 6:54 pm)SteveII Wrote: Ghandi suffered from the same malady the rest of humanity does. Any sin creates a gulf between us and God. That gulf must be bridged only with the redemption that Christ offers. It is a binary choice--with no gray area: either someone has accepted this free gift or one has not. If Ghandi did not, then he will not be in heaven. 

IMO, God judges people hearts according to the information they have and what they did with it. The Bible says that information about God is written on everyone's heart. I'm pretty sure this is the same basis that supports the Catholic doctrine of Invincible Ignorance.


Now if they have heard the Gospel and still follow Islam or Joe Smith, then that is a clear indication of their rejection of Christ.

I think sincere Catholics recognize the basics needed for salvation (it's all there).

So to clarify, everyone who does not die as a Christian is going to Hell, unless they have never heard of Jesus/gospels?

Yes. Even if they have never heard, they most respond to God on what has been revealed to them (which can be a lot). That's why I think ancient people almost universally believed in the supernatural. The Wise Men in the NT are a good example. They found evidence of God and followed it (literally!). 

Quote:Do you think it is possible to do this after you die? Example: Ghandi died a Hindu because he sincerely believed it was the right religion. He dies, sees Jesus, and realizes he was wrong, and wants to be with Jesus. Is it too late? Is he really damned to Hell for an honest mistake?

My understanding of purgatory is that it is a place for Christians who need to work on a few things. It is not a place for people like Ghandi to change their mind about things (become a Christian). So it would seem that by both protestant and Catholic doctrine, Ghandi failed to make the cut because he was certainly aware of the message of salvation by Jesus yet chose not to believe it (at least as far as we know) and therefore died without having dealt with the basic human condition: sin separates us from God.

(January 30, 2018 at 10:16 am)SteveII Wrote:

(January 29, 2018 at 7:13 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

---

So to clarify, everyone who does not die as a Christian is going to Hell, unless they have never heard of Jesus/gospels?

Yes. Even if they have never heard, they most respond to God on what has been revealed to them (which can be a lot). That's why I think ancient people almost universally believed in the supernatural. The Wise Men in the NT are a good example. They found evidence of God and followed it (literally!). 

Quote:Do you think it is possible to do this after you die? Example: Ghandi died a Hindu because he sincerely believed it was the right religion. He dies, sees Jesus, and realizes he was wrong, and wants to be with Jesus. Is it too late? Is he really damned to Hell for an honest mistake?

My understanding of purgatory is that it is a place for Christians who need to work on a few things. It is not a place for people like Ghandi to change their mind about things (become a Christian). So it would seem that by both protestant and Catholic doctrine, Ghandi failed to make the cut because he was certainly aware of the message of salvation by Jesus yet chose not to believe it (at least as far as we know) and therefore died without having dealt with the basic human condition: sin separates us from God.

To clarify here, Catholicism certainly does not teach that people of other faiths are damned, and that only people who died Christian go to Purgatory. We make no such judgements on the state of souls that way. Though I wasn't referring to Purgatory specifically, since I know it's not part of your faith... just curious what your thoughts were on some sort of last chance after death, once the person realizes they were wrong.

Don't you think if you were born into the Muslim faith, for example, that's what you'd be? Impossible to say of course, but my point is that it seems like almost always it's a matter of luck that you were born into the "right" circumstances, if another circumstance would have led you to eternal damnation.

(January 30, 2018 at 10:25 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ............my point is that it seems like almost always it's a matter of luck that you were born into the "right" circumstances, if another circumstance would have led you to eternal damnation.

Lucky, lucky CL.  

Oh, my God.  

After all the damage that religions did to human race now we have to hear that good luck or bad luck play a role into our spiritual or damned life as well.