(February 17, 2018 at 12:51 am)Cthulhu Dreaming Wrote: As a former gun nut, it absolutely is time to have an earnest national debate on this issue.  No more kicking the can down the road.

Thank you!

Saying you don't need spray weapons. Saying you don't need big clips. Saying waiting periods would help, does not make us fascist. It simply means at this point in time firearms are way to easy to get, both legally and illegally.

Funny thing is all the people who try the '"But they would use something else " often don't apply that same logic to drugs .

(February 17, 2018 at 1:32 am)Godscreated Wrote:

(February 16, 2018 at 4:51 am)pocaracas Wrote: Indeed.... but people are emotional and the presence of a gun empowers them, heightening the emotions and leading to.... what we see.
Had the guns not been available, the person would never cause such a problem... nor would it have happened 17 times in the past 47 days, a rate of more than two per week.

 If it wasn't a gun it would be something else, may not be as many killed with somethings but what it were a bomb, can get a menu for them on the net. I want my guns to hunt a shoot with and if need be to protect.

GC

In Europe, people also hunt with their own guns, typically single or dual barrel shotguns that carry one or two shells, respectively.
In spite of the existence of hunters, we don't get school shootings at anywhere near the rate you get in the states... And your population is more sparse, more spread out, so one would expect less friction over there.

Things other than guns would lead you to rates of school shooting similar to those found here, as I doubt the ratio of crazy people who would do something like that is different from what you have there.
So, if you are pro-life, you should take a look around the world and hopefully understand that the ubiquitous presence of handheld guns is the major cause of these deaths.

(February 17, 2018 at 3:26 am)pocaracas Wrote:

(February 17, 2018 at 1:32 am)Godscreated Wrote:  If it wasn't a gun it would be something else, may not be as many killed with somethings but what it were a bomb, can get a menu for them on the net. I want my guns to hunt a shoot with and if need be to protect.

GC

In Europe, people also hunt with their own guns, typically single or dual barrel shotguns that carry one or two shells, respectively.
In spite of the existence of hunters, we don't get school shootings at anywhere near the rate you get in the states... And your population is more sparse, more spread out, so one would expect less friction over there.

Things other than guns would lead you to rates of school shooting similar to those found here, as I doubt the ratio of crazy people who would do something like that is different from what you have there.
So, if you are pro-life, you should take a look around the world and hopefully understand that the ubiquitous presence of handheld guns is the major cause of these deaths.

(February 16, 2018 at 9:18 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(February 16, 2018 at 9:02 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: 2. Your thoughts are also about law. And I wasn't reffering to you , I just explained why I tryed to shut people down.

Of course I look to law to address the issue. What other option is there? However, I'm under no illusions that it would be a quick fix ... or a complete fix, for that matter. I mean, murder is illegal already.

Nor do I think shutting down conversation to be a good course of action. Any possible solution would need to have buy-in from both sides of this discussion. How are you going to achieve that by shutting discussion down? I think it's best that folks speak their views and work towards finding common ground. Perhaps neither side will be thrilled with the outcome, but if it makes headway against the problem, I reckon that's a good thing.

I didn't say it is a complet fix but it will help a lot regarding shootings.
Here is proof.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Romania

Violent crime Edit
Romania differs from many countries in that violent crime is more likely to occur in rural areas than in cities, due to the socioeconomic problems of many parts of the countryside.[1] Such rural areas often suffer from poverty, low level of education of the population, and unemployment. For instance, Romania's Nord-Est development region is one of the poorest areas of the EU.[2]

Another peculiarity of Romania is that gun violence is exceptionally rare [3] due to Romania having some of the strictest gun laws in the world. Most homicides are committed with sharp objects such as axes or knives. Among homicides in 2012, only 2% were by firearms,[3] and among suicides in 2015, only 1% were by firearms.[4] Violent crime was much higher in the 1990s.[4]

(February 16, 2018 at 12:52 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: I skipped this one sorry. It's not about a cure for all , this is a topic about SHOOTINGS , the best way to reduce SHOOTINGS is to gave stricter gun laws. 
It's not my fault that you and more guys on this topic went off topic to human condition and violence , wich are things that are beeing taclked for a long long time but somehow you will solve the problem in a few days ,  but please teach me master.

First - please preview your posts before "Post reply" because you keep screwing up your quote tags and it's getting annoying. 

Second - this is not a topic about SHOOTINGS. It is a topic about a SPECIFIC shooting - The high school shooting in Parkland, Florida that killed 17 people and left another 50 injured. 

The FBI mishandled warning signs given to them back on January 5th about the shooter. They had a credible tip about him and they did not do everything they could to prevent this crime from happening. Teachers also received an email back in 2016 to be on the lookout for the shooter and the fact that he might have a backpack with him. The shooter bragged on social media, saying he wanted to shoot people with his AR-15. The police received numerous calls in the past about the shooter being mentally ill, violent, threatening etc. 

The shooter showed warning signs FOR YEARS. Why wasn't he stopped? 

Regarding gun control, the current laws, enforcement and other things that have been discussed in this thread, the following applies. 

When will law enforcement and law makers wake up to this sort of tragedy? Here are some things I have thought of that government should put into action:

1. Law enforcement needs to start actually enforcing the laws already on the books by holding law breakers accountable. Law makers need to start looking at why enforcement is so weak to begin with and develop steps to improve this. 
2. They need to look at why proper background checks are not being done and how they can improve this issue. Perhaps requiring any owner of a gun store to take some sort of class where, upon completion, they are given a certificate to show they know what their state and federal laws are and that they know the proper procedures for selling a gun to a customer. 
3. Any employee they hire, should have to take the same class, paid for by the store owner. 

If restaurant employees are required to take a course in food safety and proper handling procedures, and have a certificate on display, renewable every so many years, I don't see why gun stores can't be held to the same or higher standards when it comes to knowing how to do a proper, legitimate background checks in order to sell a gun. 

4. They should be able to demonstrate their knowledge to properly vet a customer during any gun sale. Upon taking and passing a test, after completion of any classes, they will get a certificate, to be displayed at their place of employment. 
5. All certificates shall be renewed every 3 years to be considered current.
6. Laws need to be created to start holding corporations and store owners criminally negligent for allowing people like Nicholas Cruz to purchase guns. 
7. Publicly hold trials of CEO's and board members, when those making millions, look the other way in regards to doing proper background checks, in favor of sales goals. If you make these sorts of things available to the public, it might make other gun store owners think twice about doing the wrong thing.
8. States need to start cracking down on privatized gun sales as well by requiring a private citizen, wishing to sell his or her gun, to pay for any background checks of the person they wish to sell their gun(s) to. 
9. They need to develop programs where the names of people who have been hospitalized for mental health issues, get entered into a nationwide database. 
    9a. That database needs to be accessible to not only all levels of law enforcement, but to any gun business or private citizen wishing to sell a gun. 
    9b. In order for anyone not in law enforcement to access such database, they have to enter in the serial number of the gun being sold, the current address of said gun and the name of the gun's current owner. 
    9c. Law enforcement may access the database by logging in with parameters to be determined by the database creators. 
    9d. Once logged in, they will be able to view information regarding verifiable identification (Name, DOB and SSN, a photo (pulled from state government issued identification) and current address), and whether or not said individual is listed as having a mental illness or recent hospitalization for a mental health issue. 

So that HIPPA laws are not violated, the restriction of certain types of information should be enforced at all times. The only thing that should be listed as far as mental illness - should be either a yes or a no, so as to not identify the name of the mental illness.

Requirements for sales by gun businesses must be made stricter. Background checks are not enough.

11. There should be a law stating that each person may own a maximum of 2 guns total, at any time. 
12. All guns must be registered and entered into a national database, which shall be accessible to all levels of law enforcement as well as any gun store. If a potential customer's name and date of birth comes up on that list, then that person is not allowed to purchase a gun, period. 
13. If a current gun owner undergoes any sort of hospitalization for any mental health issue developed after ownership of a gun has occurred, there should be laws on the books requiring such a person to immediately surrender their gun to law enforcement. 

14. We need a federal law where all assault rifles, high powered rifles, sniper rifles and any other "military grade" guns or rifles should be automatically banned for sale to all private citizens. Only those in the military, on active duty or those in law enforcement should be allowed to possess and use military grade weapons. 
15. A list of legal guns and rifles available to private citizens should be posted in stores where it is visible to the public. Any gun or rifle not on that list, should be considered illegal for a private citizen to own. 
    15a. Stores should be banned from being able to sell any gun or rifle, not on the list. 
    15b. Store owners will have to produce their inventory logs if requested by law enforcement. 
    15c. Fines and/or jail time, should be assessed to any store owner in possession of any weapons not on the list of approved guns for sale. 
    15d. Any weapon not on that list, found on any private citizen, can be seized by law enforcement and penalties in the form of fines and possible imprisonment can be issued to the owner. This should deter people from wanting to have an illegal weapon. 

At some point we have to start doing something besides just talking about this. My ideas are far from perfect, but if no one at least starts to brainstorm and get something to the table, then we will, as a country, continue to be stagnate where gun control is concerned.

(February 17, 2018 at 2:59 am)Tizheruk Wrote: There is no reason in a 1st world country you need to hunt . People should not die so you can shoot at targets . And in most scenarios a gun will not save you. And if you live in a place where a gun needed for protection you need to fucking move or fix that shit .

They may not be able to afford to up and move; inner-city residents, who have the most need for protection, usually have little extra income. They're going to need a commute, too, for work and school, since they've move to safer environs.

Much easier said than done.

(February 17, 2018 at 2:59 am)Tizheruk Wrote:

Quote:If it wasn't a gun it would be something else, may not be as many killed with somethings but what it were a bomb, can get a menu for them on the net. I want my guns to hunt a shoot with and if need be to protect.

That is still justification for not controlling guns .Just because the might use something else  does not mean one should not do something about guns  . An bomb is too dangerous to construct even if you can get the plans and the materials  . Which is why mass killer go for guns there easy .easily accessible and don't require dangerous assembly . And can easily kill large numbers of people without the high probability of malfunction a home made has . There is no reason in a 1st world country you need to hunt . People should not die so you can shoot at targets . And in most scenarios a gun will not save you. And if you live in a place where a gun needed for protection you need to fucking move or fix that shit .

Hunting has replaced the natural cycle of predator/prey in controlling animals like whitetail deer. Having worked auto accident insurance claims made me aware of what hitting a 200 lb. deer at 65 mph can do to a car. And the passengers. I hunt coyotes twice a year. Invasive dog rats need thinned because the wolves aren't there to keep their numbers down.

(February 17, 2018 at 9:21 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(February 17, 2018 at 2:59 am)Tizheruk Wrote: That is still justification for not controlling guns .Just because the might use something else  does not mean one should not do something about guns  . An bomb is too dangerous to construct even if you can get the plans and the materials  . Which is why mass killer go for guns there easy .easily accessible and don't require dangerous assembly . And can easily kill large numbers of people without the high probability of malfunction a home made has . There is no reason in a 1st world country you need to hunt . People should not die so you can shoot at targets . And in most scenarios a gun will not save you. And if you live in a place where a gun needed for protection you need to fucking move or fix that shit .

Hunting has replaced the natural cycle of predator/prey in controlling animals like whitetail deer. Having worked auto accident insurance claims made me aware of what hitting a 200 lb. deer at 65 mph can do to a car. And the passengers. I hunt coyotes twice a year. Invasive dog rats need thinned because the wolves aren't there to keep their numbers down.

And why are their no more predators .....Hunting ..

---

(February 17, 2018 at 9:10 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(February 17, 2018 at 2:59 am)Tizheruk Wrote: There is no reason in a 1st world country you need to hunt . People should not die so you can shoot at targets . And in most scenarios a gun will not save you. And if you live in a place where a gun needed for protection you need to fucking move or fix that shit .

They may not be able to afford to up and move; inner-city residents, who have the most need for protection, usually have little extra income. They're going to need a commute, too, for work and school, since they've move to safer environs.

Much easier said than done.

Once again if you live in a place were you need a gun to feel safe ....

(February 17, 2018 at 9:25 am)Tizheruk Wrote:

(February 17, 2018 at 9:21 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Hunting has replaced the natural cycle of predator/prey in controlling animals like whitetail deer. Having worked auto accident insurance claims made me aware of what hitting a 200 lb. deer at 65 mph can do to a car. And the passengers. I hunt coyotes twice a year. Invasive dog rats need thinned because the wolves aren't there to keep their numbers down.

And why are their no more predators .....Hunting ..

Not in the conventional sense of people putting food on the table. There was a deliberate pogrom against wolves back in the 1800s/1900s. The thought was that the wolves killed the trophy animals, the biggest racks, the finest specimens. Some thinking would have disproven that concept, but there was little of that going on. As a result of this the only wolf species solely native to North America, the Mexican wolf, was hounded down until there were just seven specimens left.