(February 21, 2018 at 11:23 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote:   One man's murderous terrorist is another man's freedom fighter/patriot.  

That doesn't  mean they are in any way on an equal footing in the US or have equal support among the public.

Quote:We may not always have a stable and wise leader like Trump in control, and may need to be able to stand up to the government at some point.

Wise? , Stable? , Trump?

(February 21, 2018 at 10:57 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I think that some of the things that get's me, is that the case for gun control is not made well.    It's more emotional reaction than logical. Say for instance that you want to limit or get rid of automatic rifles with a large clip size.  It doesn't make sense, to cite all gun deaths, when the majority of incidences are not made with this type of weapon.  In this recent school tragedy even, that weapon may have only made a little difference.  This (in my opinion) is more of concern, when you have  a crowd, where indiscriminate fire is more effective. 

Similarly for many places which have enacted gun bans, while they did eventually minimize gun deaths, they didn't have that much effect on overall deaths.  People within a time, realized that they could kill themselves or kill others with things besides a gun.  There may be some instances where the lack of a gun will change things, but for someone who wants to kill another, the problem isn't the weapon. 

We need to be realistic about what is being proposed, and what will be the results.   Arguments that make you come off as someone who is just afraid of guns does not help.

Similarly, the "right to bear arms" shouldn't be used as a conversation stopper.   And it needs to be realistically looked at, that not all who own guns are responsible or thoughtful in their use.  Specific weapons and their availability do need to be looked at, and arguments heard.

Also of consideration is why the founders of the nation included the "right to bear arms".  This is fairly unique to the U.S. from my understanding.  We may not always have a stable and wise leader like Trump in control, and may need to be able to stand up to the government at some point.

If that is true how is it that in Romania only 300 murders happen per year ? And please don't say mentality or culture of violence because Romania's socio-economical enviroment is as fucked as a hooker at the corner.

(February 21, 2018 at 11:26 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(February 21, 2018 at 11:23 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote:   One man's murderous terrorist is another man's freedom fighter/patriot.  

That doesn't  mean they are in any way on an equal footing in the US or have equal support among the public.

I agree. However, the thing about right-wing militias is that they don't really give a damn about public support. It's built into their ideology that those who oppose them are either part of the government conspiracy to suppress their rights in furtherance of a totalitarian agenda or are the unwitting dupes of government propaganda. In either case, their opponents are not real patriots. It's the paranoid right's version of No-True-Scotsman.

(February 21, 2018 at 11:37 am)notimportant1234 Wrote:

(February 21, 2018 at 10:57 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I think that some of the things that get's me, is that the case for gun control is not made well.    It's more emotional reaction than logical. Say for instance that you want to limit or get rid of automatic rifles with a large clip size.  It doesn't make sense, to cite all gun deaths, when the majority of incidences are not made with this type of weapon.  In this recent school tragedy even, that weapon may have only made a little difference.  This (in my opinion) is more of concern, when you have  a crowd, where indiscriminate fire is more effective. 

Similarly for many places which have enacted gun bans, while they did eventually minimize gun deaths, they didn't have that much effect on overall deaths.  People within a time, realized that they could kill themselves or kill others with things besides a gun.  There may be some instances where the lack of a gun will change things, but for someone who wants to kill another, the problem isn't the weapon. 

We need to be realistic about what is being proposed, and what will be the results.   Arguments that make you come off as someone who is just afraid of guns does not help.

Similarly, the "right to bear arms" shouldn't be used as a conversation stopper.   And it needs to be realistically looked at, that not all who own guns are responsible or thoughtful in their use.  Specific weapons and their availability do need to be looked at, and arguments heard.

Also of consideration is why the founders of the nation included the "right to bear arms".  This is fairly unique to the U.S. from my understanding.  We may not always have a stable and wise leader like Trump in control, and may need to be able to stand up to the government at some point.

If that is true how is it that in Romania only 300 murders happen per year ? And please don't say mentality or culture of violence because Romania's socio-economical enviroment is as fucked as a hooker at the corner.

Yeah if one country ever should have been a den of violence it's Romania.

(February 21, 2018 at 11:23 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote: I'm reluctantly with CapnAwesome on this one. I guarantee that if we tried to disarm the militia types, there would be a series of bloody shoot-outs or worse. Theirs is the same ideology that resulted in the Oklahoma City bombing. One man's murderous terrorist is another man's freedom fighter/patriot. This is what comes of decades of right-wing propaganda and conspiracy mongering.

And it's not just right wing militia.  Hispanic and black culture have some gun love in them as well, and they aren't a bunch of Romney supporters.  And they aren't going to be welcoming in the white man disarming them with smiles on their face.

It's funny how the political left conveniently forgets minorities when topics like Christianity or guns come up.

Back on point, what's extra fun about disarming poor people, is that they're still going to be living in places with tons of guns. So for the people who comply, they won't be any safer, and the decision will be obey the law, or disarm yourself for no reason.

(February 21, 2018 at 11:40 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote:

(February 21, 2018 at 11:26 am)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: That doesn't  mean they are in any way on an equal footing in the US or have equal support among the public.

I agree. However, the thing about right-wing militias is that they don't really give a damn about public support. It's built into their ideology that those who oppose them are either part of the government conspiracy to suppress their rights in furtherance of a totalitarian agenda or are the unwitting dupes of government propaganda. In either case, their opponents are not real patriots. It's the paranoid right's version of No-True-Scotsman.

I see you agree that they won't have popular support. No revolution survives without that.

(February 21, 2018 at 11:54 am)wallym Wrote: And it's not just right wing militia.  Hispanic and black culture have some gun love in them as well, and they aren't a bunch of Romney supporters.  And they aren't going to be welcoming in the white man disarming them with smiles on their face.

Use black cops?

(February 21, 2018 at 11:54 am)wallym Wrote: It's funny how the political left conveniently forgets minorities when topics like Christianity or guns come up.

Back on point, what's extra fun about disarming poor people, is that they're still going to be living in places with tons of guns.  So for the people who comply, they won't be any safer, and the decision will be obey the law, or disarm yourself for no reason.

It's funny how the conservative right remembers them as examples of things that go wrong, but never tries to improve their lifestyle. Two can play at that game!
Low qualifications on those poor people mean that they can only apply for low wage jobs... the same jobs that have been outsourced to China and India, because they can be even cheaper there.
Without income from jobs, the struggle for survival leads to crime and the need of guns.

As an example, a welfare state can ameliorate that by introducing an subsistence subsidy for people who have no job, while giving them incentives to find a job, typically, by keeping that subsidy a bit below minimum wage and only providing it for a certain period.
At the same time, somehow (and I don't know anything of US tax law to have an opinion) provide incentives for companies to set up shop in the country. Raising import taxes is one way.... goods made in China have to return to the states, somehow to be sold, right?


It's like all the policies that the "political left" wants implemented come together to form a cohesive peaceful whole thriving community...

(February 21, 2018 at 12:03 pm)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote:

(February 21, 2018 at 11:40 am)Crossless2.0 Wrote: I agree. However, the thing about right-wing militias is that they don't really give a damn about public support. It's built into their ideology that those who oppose them are either part of the government conspiracy to suppress their rights in furtherance of a totalitarian agenda or are the unwitting dupes of government propaganda. In either case, their opponents are not real patriots. It's the paranoid right's version of No-True-Scotsman.

I see you agree that they won't have popular support. No revolution survives without that.

I think people forget that real revolutions aren't a bunch of college kids marching on saturday with clever signs.  Nobody cares about those people, because nobody needs anything from them.  Just for them to go back to being a cog on Monday, which they always do.

If you're disarming the country, you need something from the people 'revolting.'  You need to take their guns.  That's the whole point.  And we've already seen an inability to disarm organized crime.   Maybe the government could do it.  But the cost is really high.   And for what?  To take guns away from people who probably weren't going to use them until they were provoked.

It's always funny how far up it's own ass the political right is .